Auto industry Elio Motors

Published on August 16th, 2013 | by Jo Borras

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Financials Show that Elio Motors is Really, Definitely, Not Gonna Happen

Elio Motors

Elio Motors’ next payment of three-million USD to Racer Trust – the “old GM” the property liquidation agent selling the old Shreveport GM plant to Elio – is due September 4th. According to reports coming out of the Caddo Parish in Louisiana, it looks like Elio is asking the residents of Caddo to “front the money”. It’s also worth noting that Elio appears to be “on the hook” for the initial $750,000 deposit, already, which seems to be acting as a kind of “hold” on the building.

The company has submitted a number of documents to the Caddo Commission that are related to the proposed manufacture of the “Elio” trike, and these included a full breakdown of the company’s financials … and they are hilarious! Or, at least, they would be hilarious if 1.) you knew anything at all about the car business, and 2) you weren’t one of the people pinning their hopes, dreams, and hard-earned cash on Elio’s success.

You can download the .PDF report, below, but before you go rushing off to defend you precious vaporware con Elio 3-wheeler, let me talk to you about (what I found to be) the most obviously glaring issues in Elio Motors’ financials.

 

Elio Motors’ Retail Store Budget


Elio Retail Store Plan

There are a few major, major faults with this plan. Let’s start with the most obvious: Elio believes that he can go from ZERO sales (0, “goose egg”, nada, etc.) in 2013 to 68,333 units in 2014 (the second tab in the .XLS doc), on his way to a “steady” 250,000 units per year. I know you Elio supporters are bad at reality, so I’ll provide a little context:

  • 68,333 units is 2210 more units than Mini sold in 2012, despite a strong, experienced dealer group, a compelling ad presence, and the Mini being a generally good looking, practical car (as opposed to a ridiculous 3-wheeled virginity shield).

  • 68,333 units is 12,658 more units than Jaguar and Land Rover sold – combined! – in 2012, despite having an experienced dealer group several times larger than Elio’s proposed 120-strong dealer network (also: ridiculous 3-wheeled virginity shield).

  • 250,000 units is 181,883 more units than Volvo sold in all of 2012.

  • 250,000 is a big number, in other words, and – if Elio hits that number – that would make the Elio trike the number 4 best-selling vehicle in the US using 2011 numbers. The Elio would out-sell the Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Ram pickup, etc., etc. And it would have to do it all with (get this) 120 dealers.

    [pause for hilarious laughter]

    Based on that “120 dealers” number (provided by Elio), each dealership would have to sell 2084 units per year. Divided by 12, that’s 174 units per month (before the mental midgets start questioning my math, you can’t sell “0.xxx” of a car). 174 units per month is a decent number, representing a fairly solid car dealership … but here’s where this gets really stupid: each of these dealerships has just 5 (five) employees making all those sales. Even assuming that 100% of your staff is in sales and you have no finance people, no administration, no service writers, no techs, no porters, no title clerks, no receptionists, etc., each employee would have to sell 35 units per month.

    That ain’t gonna happen.

    Figuring each of those 5 employees works 20 days/month, they’d have to sell an average of 1.75 units per day. With no support staff. Their job would be to convince 1.75 people, each, per day, every day, that they should buy a ridiculous 3-wheeled virginity shield instead of, you know, a decent used car … and that they should buy said ridiculous vehicle from a dealership with no service department. And these are the numbers Paul Elio is using TO ASK FOR MONEY!

    It becomes clear, at this point, that Paul Elio has never worked in a dealership, has never sold a car, never written service, never turned a wrench, never paid attention, and is (to use the industry parlance) little more than a stupid green pea. That’s a compliment to Paul Elio, when you think about it, because the alternative is that he’s an accomplished con artist … he can’t be both, at this point.

    Things get even hilarious-er when you look at Elio’s justification for his proposed “$5959″ price point on the Elio trike.

     

    Elio Motors’ Pricing is a Joke


    Elio Cost Breakdown per unit

    You know all those finance people, administration staff, service writers, techs, porters, title clerks, receptionists, etc. that I mentioned above? Elio doesn’t budget for them anywhere that I can see, except for right there, in a piddling little $150 line-item dubiously titled “warranty”.

    “But wait,” I can hear you saying. “He budgets $225 per car for retail operations. Surely, that covers it?” Sadly, you didn’t read everything above – that $225 covers only the 5 dealership employees expected to sell 1.75 cars per day, every day, out of a dealership with no support staff. Even if you take $150 and multiply it by 250,000 units sold, you’ve only got $37.5 million. Divide that by 120 dealers and you get $312,500 per dealer. Divided by the $67,500 that Elio cites as his cost per employee, and that’s just 4 full-time people … with $0 left over for loaner cars, replacement parts, etc.

    Oops! I just noticed that the $150 line in Elio Motors’ spreadsheet reads “warranty and liability”, do it’s even less than 4 people with no access to parts and loaner cars under said “warranty”.

    The short version: Elio is borked, whether you need to wear a helmet to drive its ridiculous 3-wheeled virginity shield or not. If you don’t see that, the I hope that 1.) you haven’t foolishly put your 401K into this mess, and that 2.) you have fun flaming me in the comments.

    Sources: Caddo Commission, via Forward Now / Racer Trust.


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About the Author

I've been involved in motorsports and tuning since 1997, and write for a number of blogs in the Important Media network. You can find me on Twitter, Skype (jo.borras) or Google+.



  • MikeD

    There are a lot of things that haven’t been clearly defined by Elio, however there are some serious individuals that have been/and are still in the auto industry guiding the company. If this thing had only a stones throw of a chance then you wouldn’t have these names on board (which are on Elio’s website).

    As for comparing Volvo, Jaguar, and Land Rover, all automobiles that only the upper middle class can afford to drive, to a car that is still touted to cost $6800 when released is absurd. Cheaper cars will get more sales that expensive automobiles. They are going after a larger demographic, therefore the number of sales can be expected to be larger.

    Personally I have two automobiles; One SUV and a sedan. I plan on purchasing an Elio when it comes out, so I can extend the longevity of my other vehicles. After all, why would I want to drive other vehicles that cost more per mile than an Elio if I am only driving myself. The argument for the Elio has only been about mpg, however it should be more about cost per mile. The real cost of a car is not just fuel, that is the most apparent cost since we all have to deal with it on a more frequent basis. The real cost includes insurance, maintenance, fuel, consumables, etc.

    In your argument there is a lot of personal conjecture, showing an absolute immaturity to the subject matter that you are dealing with. A more educated point of view based on financials from someone who has experience dealing with numbers in the automotive environment would have real bearing. Being in motorsports and tuning since 1997, and writing a blog has no bearing on the subject. I would suggest you bring in some one with experience and jump off of that knowledge as a sounding board.

    However, I do agree that this is a risky venture Elio has gotten underway, but there is a saying. No risk no reward. I hope it goes all the way, and if I had the income to put up for an Elio I would. As for now I’m waiting with baited breath hoping to at least get one when the first round comes out.

    • Brian Livesay

      3000 cars have been purchased so far Paul Elio said in his last interview. I put down the $1000 a couple weeks ago at that rate they should have over 1000 a week reserved. I’m sure they are just getting the marketing up and running right now. So if they were only able to reserve 1000 a month buy next July which I think they are doing that a week right now they would have reserved another 11,000 by next July for a total of about 14,000. Assuming that people are reserving on the three different levels which I don’t quite remember now but lets say there $250 $500 and $1000 that would be about $7,000,000 of which they have already raised about $1,500,000 based on averages of course

      When the car comes out there are going to sell them really cheap to gain the largest amount of attention they can get then quickly the real value of these cares
      will automatically adjust to simple supply and demand. Because the true value of these cars is much higher than they are selling them for when compared to other 2 seat economical cars on the market. The supply financing servicing etc they are going to centralized to save money. They’re being smart by saving the overhead on this for now and because it’s all off the shelf I’m sure you can take it to your local mechanic. People said Google would never make any money.
      They also said apple would go out of business. But the in the moment practicality of the car is unmistakable that why so many are currently being reserved. I want one even if they only make a couple thousand and go out of business but I think they’ll succeed. Really who would want the other 2 Seater cars on the market at $15,000 a piece and half the mileage? Not to mention fun factor. This car is a big of a game changer as was the original VW Bug. Maybe we’ll see the Baja Elio maybe the flying “Aero Elio” kit. This car is so cheap
      they’re may be a thousand available mods out there. Anyways none of those big name Execs would be involved in the project if they thought it wouldn’t
      succeed.

      • Jo Borras

        3000 is far short of 68,333 … and still doesn’t address the issues I brought up, by the way. As for the “big name execs” getting involved, everyone needs a write-off to sink money into, right?

        • Sampson

          I have no dog in this hunt, but my guess is that he assumed 14,000 units in his comment, times an average deposit level. Regarding big name execs: It depends on whether or not they put cash in the company. And if they did, lost money is still lost money — and no one likes that.

          • Jo Borras

            You are correct – I didn’t follow Brain’s train of thought there. I still don’t, since the financials clearly state that $7 million won’t be enough to get the lights turned on and production started. Is he (Paul Elio) planning on using those Purchase Orders to generate more loans? How does that address the “5 employees per store” nonsense? Also, $6000 per retail facility for rent in a major market? At $237 retail space per sq. ft. as an average in Miami (http://www.loopnet.com/miami_florida_market-trends), which is certainly a major market, that $6000 buys a WHOPPING 25 sq. ft. of space … and no utilities!

            This whole Elio thing looks like a scam and quacks like a scam.

          • rogwild

            Humm, 3,000 deposits/reservations so far and the Pre-Production Prototype
            is not even ready for another 4-5 months? ‘Projected’ to 14,000 by production start next summer…. all without starting a major marketing campaign or even ONE of the 120 retail locations open or manned by the paltry 5-person staff; perhaps you have underestimated the DEMAND for an inexpensive, economical, all-weather, 2-person Commuter, or “ridiculous 3-wheeled virginity shield “ (some example of professional un-biased journalism). Perhaps your outlook would be different if it had a ridiculously inefficient rotary
            engine!

          • Brian Livesay

            Grossly underestimated demand! The numbers may not come in as good on the car as they want but even if they come anywhere near the numbers it’ll still be good. There are always difficulties in getting new ventures done and many do fail. This car kills it’s competitors hands down. Scam? no too many people involved. It’s a big venture but it’s not like launching a luxury giant helicopter cruise line. There are pleanty of people who know what a good idea it is and will pitch in to help to make it happen if needed and they’re almost there. People will defiently want a fun to drive Elio over a boring slow dumb car at twice the mileage = no brainer. 3000 pre orders = no brainer. They will get built.

          • Jo Borras

            You think the number of people involved = credibility? Have you ever heard of this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff ?? How about the Dale: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twentieth_Century_Motor_Car_Corporation ?? How about Enron and WorldCom?

            Wow – I almost thought you might have a point. GOOD MOVE posting a profile picture with a tie. It lends some credibility for like, a second.

          • Timothy Mahoney

            Not at 6800 selling price – what are you smoking?

          • Jo Borras

            Perhaps I haven’t overestimated DEMAND for it, since 14,000 sales seems reasonable to me. Sadly, Elio’s business plan calls for 68,333 sold in 2014, and 250,000 sold in 2015. That, dear friend, is a laughable joke … especially for an unconventional 3 wheeler.

          • rogwild

            If you actually READ the post, that ‘projection’ was at the current rate, WITHOUT a national advertising campaign, or even ONE of the 60-120 Dealerships, or even ONE of the ‘sales staff’. That DEMAND could easily be 10x or 20x once they begin to hit the national media, major auto shows, and the information gets widely disseminated. The demand for a commuter vehicle that gets 2-3 times the mileage, cost 1/2 as much as a compact car, provides more comfort and safety than a normal motorcycle….. will be HUGE !

          • Jo Borras

            No, it couldn’t be. It won’t be. I’m sorry this fact troubles you. :: hugs ::

          • Timothy Mahoney

            except it will not get 2-3 times the mileage – have you read anything from those that actually PRODUCE vehicles?

          • Obama_The_Fraud

            Just send the non-manufacturer of anything your money. With $1000 donation you will be sure to get $0 in bankruptsy.Good return on investment for you.

          • kerry cale

            They already had 13,000 pre orders as of March 2013, so wow are you way off, 68,000 is easily obtainable.

          • doofus

            hey you nitwit. That link shows **SALES** price of real estate, and you are comparing that with **LEASE** rates. Stupid stupid stupid.

          • GREG

            The funding is to come from the “no more than $165 million” private investment. I tend to agree that the sales numbers are over shooting by 30 to 50% to start with. However, I see great export opportunities after the initial U.S. demand is met.
            I just sold my electric car, and will most likely buy on to replace my 12 year old motorbike. Right now, my bike, truck, and the 1 block walk to the streetcar/bus system in New Orleans’ Lower Garden District meets my needs. But over 70 mpg, compared to the 17 mpg my F250 gets, means the Elio will pay for itself in 2-3 years. Also my motorbike full coverage insurance is $210 per year. My truck is $960 per year.

          • John

            I don’t really understand this thing about dealerships. Where I come from (Malta, Europe) the agents for one brand of car typically also handle a number of other cars (for instance the Mercedes agents also handle Renault and Smart; the VW agents also handle Skoda and some other brands; Ford agents have Saab and Volvo and Mazda too etc.). Therefore I guess that if Elio goes down this route then all the administration and marketing and other overheads of this nature are pretty much covered by existing setups; and he does not even need the 5 employees per dealer because when a client comes into the showroom he can see the various models and the Elio could be there in the showroom and if client is after a small 3 wheeler then the salesperson would just tell him about that vehicle. So this could be a way out for Elio. But maybe there in the USA a different dealership model prevails and each dealership is limited to one make of car. Is this 100% always the case there?

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            American dealers are allowed to carry multiple brands, the issue isn’t that- it’s with the number of units sold per employee. Also, the other brands wouldn’t “float” the costs on Elio’s infrastructure, regardless – it has to be profitable on its own for a dealer to carry the line. That’s like saying to an electronics store “You should carry the Microsoft tablet. Yes, I know it’s not profitable alone, but the profits you make selling Apple products will cover that.”

      • Jo Borras

        Sorry, I just checked your math, and I realized you can’t do math. Even at the MAXIMUM deposit of $1000 you mention, x 3000 units, that’s $3,000,000 … or $4,000,000 short of your $7,000,000 number.

        Whatchoo talkin’ ’bout, Willis!??

        • Maureen

          Jo,

          Sorry, I just checked your reading, and I realized you can’t read thoroughly …..try again ……maybe if you read it a couple more times, you will comprehend what he wrote.

          • Jo Borras

            That’s 3 responses (so far) from the “woman” who claims my comments aren’t worth responding to. Still no responses to any actual arguments made in the article or indication that she’s read the financials/isn’t on Elio’s payroll.

          • GJPinks

            Ignore JoBo, he’s just a racist hater.

          • Jo Borras

            Ignore GJPinks, he’s not koala-fied to to leave the house without a helmet.

            (2 points if you can a) guess what I’m calling you, and b) tell me what flavor your window is)

          • GJPinks

            Thanks for demonstrating your petty hater soul. Making fun of those with special needs. AND so few followers, what a shame.

        • Brian Livesay

          Let me help you with the math because your having trouble understanding. And chose to leave what is now a racist remark.

          14000 / .33 = 4260 * 250 = 1,065,000

          14000 / .33 = 4260 * 500 = 2,130,000

          14000 / .33 = 4260 * 1000 =4,260,000

          =7,455,000

          Somebody will be eating there hat next year only time will tell who.

          • Jo Borras

            How is “Whatchoo talikin’ ’bout Willis!??” racist? Better: how is it “now” racist?

            Whatever – I’ll ignore that. Please refer to the post from 2 hours PRIOR TO THIS ONE where I say “You are correct, I failed to follow Brian’s thinking” blah blah.

            That said, I also wrote: the financials clearly state that $7 million won’t be enough to get the lights turned on and production started. Is he (Paul Elio) planning on using those Purchase Orders to generate more loans? How does that address the “5 employees per store” nonsense? Also, $6000 per retail facility for rent in a major market? At $237 retail space per sq. ft. as an average in Miami (http://www.loopnet.com/miami_f…, which is certainly a major market, that $6000 buys a WHOPPING 25 sq. ft. of space … and no utilities!

            This whole Elio thing looks like a scam and quacks like a scam.

            As for the “racist” comment, I think you’re off your a** on that one.

          • goofus

            Your loopnet link is broken. I don’t see anywhere on loopnet that has RETAIL space in that price range?!?!? Are you looking at lease rates or purchase rates? A typical lease in Miami area is about $75/ft. Mimami is on the EAST coast and in the east lease rates are typically quoted as SQFT per *YEAR*. That makes it about $6.25 sqft/month. $6k would, in this case, get you 960/sqft month. And those numbers are on the higer rent side.
            My bet is that Elio teams up with an established retailer for sales and warranty work. I’m thinking Sears. Elio says they’ll have 2000+ service centers. There are aprox 3900 Sears locations inthe US and Canada, and roughly 2/3rds of them (2000) have service centers. makes total sense to me. God knows that Sears could use the extra business.

          • Will Gates

            Wow! My garage is about 650 square feet (31 feet wide by 21 feet deep, give or take a few inches). Inside I have a Chevy Van, a Mercedes Sports car, some boxes of Christmas decorations, a wall of shelves on one side, and that makes it a pretty full garage.

            If I were to add room for another car bay (say another 300 square feet), I can’t imagine running a dealership selling hundreds of cars a month from that space. T

            he Elio is about half a foot longer than my Mercedes and 10 inches wider, so it will take up as much space on a car lot as a standard four wheeler.

            The Elio is about fourteen feet long and three inches over six feet wide. You would want to have some space for your customers to walk around them. If you add just six feet on each side, that takes up 26 feet by 18 feet or about 470 square feet. If you’re looking at a car in a showroom, you want to see it from more than just a foot or two away. Just two Elios would take up a display space 30 by 26 feet, or 750 of the available 960 square feet, leaving 200 square feet for desks, chairs, restrooms for customers (and employee(s)), spare parts, service bays, etc. For perspective, the old two stall gas/service stations of the 50′s and 60′s were 1800-2200 square feet.

      • Timothy Mahoney

        No, 3000 vehicles have not been “purchased”. Even as of this date about half that many (their numbers) have put up a deposit. You wrote this stupid response 4 months ago Still feeling “chippy” ? What a rube.

    • Jo Borras

      That is a laughable, ridiculous argument and you should flagellate yourself for making it. “Why would I want to drive other vehicles that cost more per mile … ?” If “cost per mile” is your motivator, buy a 50 cc scooter …

      http://gas2.org/2011/10/23/when-does-90-mpg-seem-low/

      … if you need more speed, get a 200 cc Vespa …

      http://gas2.org/2011/04/25/want-to-improve-national-security-ride-a-scooter/

      … if you think that would make a CAR company successful, then why wasn’t the Yugo the best selling car in America? Why isn’t the Chevy Spark the best-seller right now? What costs less? A Kia Rio?? Where’s that on the top 10 list? Oh … it’s NOT on the top 10 list?

      Huh.

      Why do you think that is?

      Oh, that’s right! Because that’s a laughable, ridiculous argument! Sorry, I almost thought you’d made a point.

      Next time, stick to addressing the points made in the article. Then you can say “I disagree” without putting your “logiks” out there for everyone to make fun of.

      • Maureen

        Jo, you’re even more of an idiot then I thought you were after reading your reply. How’s that ego working out for you?

        • Jo Borras

          The ego’s solid. Way to absolutely not address any of my points, by the way. How’s that deflection working for you?

          (hint: not well)

          • Maureen

            It would be a waste of my time and energy to address anything you say …..why even bother? (I’m sure you will be back with a come-back, and if not …..well, I guess you have more discipline then I thought)

          • Jo Borras

            You have literally just addressed what I said twice. Are you actually this ridiculous on your own, or do you keep a staff of comedy writers on retainer?

          • Maureen

            OMG!! Seriously??? you aren’t very deft, are you? (look it up) …..Let me spell it slowy ….I T W O U L D B E A W A S T E O F M Y T I M E A N D E N E R G Y T O A D D R E S S A N Y T H I N G Y O U S A Y W H Y E V E N

            B O T H E R ? Now read that back 100 times till you process it.

          • Maureen

            Go ahead, get the last word in now …….I know that’s just your nature ……I’m done! Wasted enough time on you as it is.

          • Jo Borras

            No, you haven’t. ;)

          • Jo Borras

            You sure do waste a lot of time commenting on what a wast of time it is to comment. LOL! Please die now.

          • AZ

            tell someone to die? Wow, how do you even have a job?

          • rogwild

            This ‘BO’ guy is a disgrace to journalism, just likes to hear himself talk,…. and argue with others. “Gas 2″ can do much better!

          • Maureen

            Being the thoughtful kind of gal I am, I’ll let you go first ……

          • Jo Borras

            HA! I knew you’d be back. :: kissies ::

      • MikeD

        Sure, a scooter is going to get you a better cost per mile, however it isn’t a good choice when considering weather and road conditions. Why would I want to buy something I can’t drive 80-100% of the time to work, or where ever I need to go. Believe me, I already have though about it.

        Regarding all of the other small cars on your list of things to compare to… Most of those cars cost double of what the Elio will cost. If the Elio was $12,000 I wouldn’t buy it. It being almost half of that makes it incredibly affordable.

        For some reason you have some serious issues with the Elio. It really doesn’t make sense.

        • Jo Borras

          My issues are not with the Elio, necessarily. In tis piece, they’re about Elio’s budget being authored by stupid/ignorant people (at best), and malicious con artists (at worst). As for making it “incredibly affordable”, you can buy a decent, reliable, made in the USA car for $6800 that has a national parts and service network.

          • AZ

            No IT IS with Elio, your 1st article about Elio made that clear.

          • Kent

            WOW DUDE! Is your meltdown finally over?

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            What meltdown? Pissing off idiots is WHAT. AH. DO. LOL

        • Timothy Mahoney

          And you will not buy it then because it cannot be made for half, not if it is to be sold for a profit. That is the whole point of the article. Not that it isn’t a nice idea. It is just plan impossible to do. Jo’s points PROVE that.

    • Elio Girl

      That’s exactly why I plan on purchasing an Elio… to extend the life of my other car. I want it to be a second car and I don’t want to spend $30000-40000 on a second car! The fact that the Elio will have excellent mileage, is a huge plus for me. I really want one of these. I hope the writer of this article is all wrong.

      • Jo Borras

        Right, because spending $30-40K is your only other option. LOL

        Seriously, you nutters crack me up!

        • Kent

          Jo, when you’re in the hole, quit digging. You wrote a crap article, were called on it, now get over it.

    • Obama_The_Fraud

      Just send your $100 donation (refundable) and have to sue to get it back after paying a lawyer $1000. You will not be rich, they will.

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  • AG

    Honestly – I was intrigued by your headline and really wanted to learn more – that is until I found myself reading something akin to my five year old daughter throwing a fit because she is tired. Any possible hard data and true analysis was lost on me. Did the folks at Elio kill your dog or steal your lunch?

    Try looking up subjectivity in your Journalism 101 textbook and then get back to us.

    • Maureen

      Yes, my thoughts exactly! I would be embarrassed to submit this “so-called” article. It is very juvenile of him to write in the style he has written, not to mention the words he used to express his thoughts. I won’t waste any more of my time reading his drivel any longer …..I didn’t even finish the article, it was that insulting.

      • Obama_The_Fraud

        Where are they now building a product?….Bye bye your $… bankruptsey.

        • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

          You’ll have to excuse her. She doesn’t like reading articles/doing math that doesn’t support her ridiculous worldviews.

        • Paul Kinsella

          Next time spell it “Bankruptcy”! Jo forgot to tell you. Double Negative equals a Positive their Jo! Doesn’t twice in one sentence? Come on and Get Involved with Grammar!

          • Jo Borras

            You don’t see any irony in this post? LOL

          • Steve Sparks

            How about whatever. Grammar issues do not discount ones opinion.

    • Jo Borras

      I don’t think you understand “objective”, since you haven’t addressed my points. That said, I subjectively think you might want your 5 year old to write your comments for you from now on.

      • Maureen

        Subjectivity is basically a persons opinion. It is not based on an
        external fact but on an internal feeling. Usually subjectivity is based
        on belief, feeling or perspective not hard evidence. What he is telling you is you have no facts in your article, that you are merely expressing your personal opinion. What is so hard to understand about that statement? Go ahead and read his response several more times, it may sink in. duhhhhh

        • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

          Right, what he is telling me is wrong, because I posted links, sources, and numbers, and he is an idiot.

        • Syndi Torres

          LMAO Maureen, “Good One” :)

      • Syndi Torres

        I really do believe you failed in the “Auto Industry” (just a theory) and are now just JEALOUS that someone other than you came up with such an excellent idea supporting the American Car Industry, supplying jobs to Americans and reducing the cost of gasoline, parts, maintenance, etc. You are simply put, “A HATER”.

        If Elio does not succeed then they can try again! “Never give Up on a dream, concept, goal, etc” and especially do not let HATERS, like you for example hold you back! At least Elio creators and designers are for the people and for America! What are you for, other than crushing dreams/goals/and ideas of other fellow human beings?

        I feel sorry for Envious, Arrogant Kill~Joys like yourself!Quit your complaining and contribute something positive to society, not HATE BLOGS!

    • Daniel Lunsford

      I was thinking that, valid points notwithstanding, it reads like a shill piece for the Big Three.

      • DBlain

        Two of the big three are de facto bankrupt, so I wouldn’t hold your breath for some grand conspiracy so they can rule the earth of autos…. In fact, i wouldn’t ever hold your breath for any major conspiracy, because, you know, Occam’s Razor….

        The financials on this company do not add up, and that’s a fact. It’s a rosy projection and if people want to put their hard earned money on the line it’s up to them in the end. Maybe the slightly vitriolic tone is because the author of this piece is like me – sick of seeing people getting fleeced by modern snake oil salesmen and throwing their blood and sweat down the toilet. What happens when you buy a $6500 car and you can’t service it? I really do hope this thing takes off, because more market participants lead to faster innovation and it ends up being better for the customer in bang-for-the-buck terms, but this piece is a breath of kind-of-fresh air in a world full of hype.

        I mean, really, do a web search, and for every article like this there are like twenty pumping this thing as the next big deal. Pays to be realistic, is all.

        • Jeff See

          If those are in fact the financial forecasts of Elio, then they really are either nuts or crooks. Which is sad, because I really feel that it’s time to hang our egos up and realize that transportation can be done much less expensively, and ideas like this are how you can get it done, (at least, in part).

          If this truly is their plan, though, they’re not going to go anywhere. If I had a desire to invest, and read something like those plans, I would look somewhere else.

          I agree with earlier posters, though. The dude was gushing, rudely. And, personally, what made it suck wasn’t that he was celebrating the failure of a company, but of a new idea. One he either couldn’t grasp, or simply hated.

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            I do hate the idea, which seems to be “MEGA CASH GRAB from people who are too uneducated to know any better”.

          • Jeff See

            I was speaking to the fact you obviously hate the idea of a 3 wheeled vehicle.

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            Except that I don’t, so … maybe you’re missing what “obvious” means?

          • Jeff See

            So your comment about three wheel virginity shields was actually a comment about your love for tricycles? Or were you speaking specifically of this particular tricycle?

            Either way, the people at Elios are no longer interested in commenting on this particular subject. I’ve asked them about it, and looked for anything they’ve released, and haven’t found anything that they’ve stated as a rebuttal. I also looked up the media pages of some of the suppliers they list as ‘sure things’, and none of them have released any statements regarding anything about partnering with Elios. I’m not sure how that whole process goes, (are they staying quiet until details are hammered out? are they aware they’re being listed as suppliers, without representing themselves as such?), so that might mean squat.

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            You do realize that you can like, for example, one motorcycle and not another, right? So that my comments about not liking THIS trike don’t necessarily apply to other trikes … or does that confuse you?

            Also, to answer your question about suppliers- a supplier is a vendor. When Elio says they have a “supplier”, it means they’ve picked who they are going to buy from, not that the supplier is in any way supporting or sponsoring the company. That’s not to say the suppliers don’t want Elio to succeed- of course they do! They want another customer!!

          • Jeff See

            I’m fully aware of the concept of ‘like’ and/or ‘taste’. This is the second trike you’ve talked crap about. That’s why I asked the question about it being a general dislike, or a particular dislike. There was no need to continue the unnecessary defensive condescending tone. I’ll leave that subject at that.

            I didn’t have a question about what a supplier is, I had questions regarding what the process was for suppliers to identify themselves. That’s what I was mentioning when I said that they aren’t speaking up. You go to Lear’s webpage, and go to their media/announcements search, and you don’t see squat regarding having been announced as a vendor for Elio.

            Thanks for all of the piety. It feels as though you read my last comment with the intent to rebut taking precedence over listening, so I’ll leave you to your obscure little corner of the internet. I guess you owe Elio one.

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            Your words: “I was speaking to the fact you obviously hate the idea of a 3 wheeled vehicle.”

            That’s not a question … but that’s cool.

            As for suppliers identifying themselves, does Costco identify themselves as “Jeff See’s supplier” when you buy a cheese plate? No, of course not … hence, I wasn’t sure you knew what a supplier was, and still don’t understand why you’d think they’d make a big deal out of it.

          • Jeff See

            Here, let me copy/paste since you’ve apparently lost track of the conversation. Here’s the question: “So your comment about three wheel virginity shields was actually a comment about your love for tricycles? Or were you speaking specifically of this particular tricycle?” I do hope that helped.

            Actually, I don’t care if it helped. I’m not going to bother explaining any more; my questions/statements were clear enough, and your reading comprehension skills are not my problem. You can continue to respond to this thread; I’m done with it.

          • mquale

            Dude, you come off like a condescending little prick. Give it a break and learn subjectivity. It will make you sound way more engaging and open to conversation.

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            You confuse me for someone who is open to conversation. To be fair, I probably was at the time I published this article, but the blind faith people have in Elio’s narrative has sapped a fair percentage of my faith in humanity, and a a fairer (?) percentage of my faith in America’s education system.

            My new response? If you disagree with me, send Elio your non-refundable $1000 deposit. I’ll just point and laugh form here on out.

          • mquale

            Yeah, my confusion comes from the obvious fact that you DO respond and converse with your commentators. I just learned of the Elios and did my own investigation which led me to this blog post.

            I like the concept, the idea of a economical commuter vehicle. The flaws in the plan, as you have pointed out (if they are indeed the real financials and not some made up malarkey). Elios would be laughable to say the least.

          • JD

            There you go celebrating the possible failure of a future company. Sadly it’s a trend happening more and more these days across the US. Is the whole business model “out there..?” Sure it is, agreed but for crying out loud something has got to be done and at least it’s someone is trying. I truly hope that you hope you’re wrong and that the company makes it. And it’s not about what they are making but that they are trying to get the US name out there again.. to bring something superior to the market and at a low cost. With investors the trike would sell like crazy. All those people driving scoters around these days might be able to afford a vehicle that can keep them get out of the rain. And one other point. If and it’s a big if I give you that, this vehicle actually get’s 84 to 86 mpg.. they’ll make their 250k volume in sales. Shoot I’d buy two just for spare parts! It would become the new VW Bug of the 70′s. CHEAP. So yeah.. I put down a Benjamin on it along with 14091 other people and the car’s not even being built yet.. that ought to tell you something right there. We want this to happen.

          • Michael Calvano

            He is pointing out the obvious failure of this company. You wasted $100. Sorry. When something sounds too good to be true, it is.

          • J_JamesM

            That horrible moment when you realize that people who you otherwise agree with on a broad range of topics turn out to be credulous, tribalistic suckers when it comes to something that is quite obviously too good to be true.

        • Buzzy

          I put $100 in with hopes that Elio will, at least, be able to build the “1st run”, those that have had deposits put down on them. Having gone through the expense of having created viable prototypes has, probably, been a white-knuckle ride, anyway, and if he wasn’t serious or hopeful that the vision will catch on, that has been quite the waste of time, effort and resources. I have lived, at times, in situations in which the numbers didn’t add up, hard times, and I have made it through to the point of my checking account being in the black most of the time. When I’ve shown friends articles and videos of what I hope to buy, they are all impressed and interested. Not one of them has not looked at it without considered interest. I think that times are hard enough in this country, right now, that many, many people would be interested in a commuter that, considering fuel savings, would wind up costing them practically nothing. In 1990, I bought a Geo Metro. My other car was a 1976 LTD station wagon. I took a job for which I had to take 9 credits per year to fulfill a waiver and had to take classes 60 miles away, three times a week, for 2 and a half years. That Geo saved me thousands. It is my hope that Elio will scrape by, to succeed. You may have convinced me more if you had used the “$6500″ figure in your figuring that you mentioned at the end and gotten a similar result. If it actually all does come to fruition through it all, I would pay a bit more than the $6800 he supposedly is hoping to charge.

      • Obama_The_Fraud
        • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

          I might be!

      • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

        Why do you guys think anything that shows “big companies have a huge advantage and building “x product” is way harder than people think it is” is a shill piece?

        • Daniel Lunsford

          There’s a difference between criticizing a business plan and doing so in a way that sounds like a personal attack. Maybe it is just how you write, but to me the above sounds a bit personal- like you want Elio to fail.

          That is why I say it sounds like a shill piece- not because of content, but because of tone.

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            Fair point.

    • Marcus

      LOL you think they are going to be able to sell this thing for $6800? You can’t buy a new golf cart for that. But hey, if it’s possible then great. I’m all for changing the world, I drive a scooter to work. LOL “any hard data and true analysis was lost on me”. Wouldn’t expect you to understand. Did your math teacher kill your dog?

    • Marcus

      LOL you think they are going to be able to sell this thing for $6800? You can’t buy a new golf cart for that. But hey, if it’s possible then great. I’m all for changing the world, I drive a scooter to work. LOL “any hard data and true analysis was lost on me”. Wouldn’t expect you to understand. Did your math teacher kill your dog?

    • Michael Calvano

      The article is written to be as humorous as Paul Elio’s business model. I got a chuckle out of reading both.

    • mrtwobit

      So, what your saying is, “Don’t bother me with the facts, I want one”!

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  • PBruce

    Someone posted this article on the Elio Motors FB page. I’m sure Elio Motors will give a boilerplate response to the faithful and all will be well again.

    • Jo Borras

      The “faithful”! HAHHHHAAAAAAHAHA!! What a fantastic way you have with words. When you disagree with me down the road, please be gentle. I *hate* getting into battles of wits with heavily armed opponents!!

      • just me

        I now hate you so much, I’m going to reserve an Elio just to spite you. Or is all your BS just reverse psychology? Now THAT would be clever!

        • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

          LOL! Good luck, amigo. I hope you get something for your money. Sincerely.

    • bamsam82

      I deleted my post from Elio’s Facebook page. I was
      hoping for a more meaningful debate. Not just all the name calling. Really no need for anyone else from the page to post here.

      • Jo Borras

        The Elio supporters are bad at reality. Name-calling is all they have, and it’s not their fault.

        • AZ

          yeah unlike you Jo, right? No name calling no telling people to go die now. A “guest” voted up your comment again? Wow

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            Looks like it! As for telling people to die, you’re still an idiot.

    • AF

      To the folks posting here,

      It occurs to me that Mr. Borras may not be interested in Elio or any of the other topics he rants on rather he is likely being compensated in some form by the number of replies he manages to troll up. I propose by your replying, you are simply helping him get paid. Perhaps we should leave him to his ramblings?

      • Jo Borras

        If only that were true, then I would somehow benefit from all the idiocy I encounter. :(

        • Jamie Sue

          I think people forget that bloggers don’t generally rake in the mad cash just by firing up a comments thread. Ad revenue, pay per piece, flat salary if they are lucky…but, a bunch of comments gets them dick for money in the world of online content generation.

          • Christopher DeMorro

            @Jamie Sue

            You didn’t hear? We’re all paid oil shills living the high life. Blogging pays so well I had the time and incentive to take on two other jobs!

      • Christopher DeMorro

        @ AF

        I am the managing editor here, and I can assure you that neither Jo nor I are compensated based on our total comment response. That would be nice, seeing as how some articles on this site have racked up 2000+ comments.

        Jo is just very bored and argumentative, and his arguments fly in the face of fanboyism. Let me ask you, how many other websites allow you to so easily engage the writer of a controversial article?

  • PBruce
    • Jo Borras

      Very! I like this part …

      “According to Lynch, Elio’s inability to raise capital at this point may make the deal too risky and speculative. “If Elio is having trouble raising $7.5 million to purchase the plant, Lynch says, where is the $200 million going to come from that is actually needed to bring those jobs to Caddo Parish,” said Lynch. “

  • Kevin Dougherty

    The way this article slammed the Elio makes me think Elio seriously has something going for them. As for making the sales numbers…if the car gets even 75% of the claimed MPG and cost less than $10K brand new, then sales will be even higher than projected.

    • Christopher DeMorro

      @ Kevin Dougherty

      I love how people jump to the defense of anything “green” even when we’ve seen this same story over and over again with the same outcome.

      The fact of the matter is, nearly every automotive/motorcycle startup in the past half-century has failed not because of some Detroit conspiracy, but because building and marketing cars is HARD. Sure, ideas like the Fisker Karma or the Elio look and sound GREAT on paper, but very few companies ever come close to delivering on their promise.

      Tesla Motors is an exception, and one financed by a billionaire with plenty of government help. When you read as many gushing press releases as Jo and I do on a daily basis, it becomes pretty easy to see what companies are serious, and what companies are pushing pie-in-the-sky.

      IF the Elio even makes it to production, I can’t see it as anything more than a niche vehicle like the Can-Am Spyder, and even that seems ambitious.

    • Steve King, CISSP, CISA

      That’s my thinking. And if the more shit hits the fan in the Middle East and speculators push gas prices from $4 to $5 dollars a gallon even more people will be convinced the virginity shield is their best pocket book protection for a mere $7K investment. Because in the end we are not talking about the family truskster here. We are talking about a cheap work commuter.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      Nice hat.

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  • Glen K

    This is the same kind of slam another car company got when it moved into the market in the late 60′s and early 70′s They were blasted as well with numbers and figures and naysayers like yourself. I was wondering if by chance you were paid by one of the top 3 to write this or you were actually smart enough to do it all by yourself. This article reads as though you want this company to fail and if you do that is truly sad when AMERICANS want to build an AMERICAN made motor/car using AMERICAN parts using AMERICAN ingenuity and AMERICANS to build it. I am sure the numbers would fair better for you if it was manufactured in China to see all the Renminbi that would be made and profit margins to meet or exceed your financial expectations. Maybe then we would read something much different about how this is another great example and concept of someone trying to create forward thinking and to invent a cheaper alternative driving vehicle that working AMERICANS can afford. The company doesn’t claim to replace your mini-van or SUV. It’s a way save money and to generally just go to work. You have made up your mind on the Elio motor company, my post or your response wont change my mind or yours. By the way the company I referred to earlier is called Honda Motor Co Ltd check out their stock prices and get back to us on how well they seem to be doing. You financial wizard

    • Jo Borras

      You’re right (and not just your politics!). That said, you COULD change my mind by addressing the budget and financials posted … but you won’t do that, because you don’t understand them. Am I getting close? That was my guess.

      • AZ

        You hated this thing from the start without any financials. We read your first article about Elio. The best insight to your insecurities as a person is when you referred to the Elio as a “virginity shield.” It’s obvious to anyone that read article that your ability to get “any” is based on what you drive, and not who you are. It’s really very sad that you equate with what you drive, determines your ability to attract a mate. Very sad indeed.

        • HumanLiberty

          All this vitriol from both sides could be spared if only Elio’s fans (one of whom I arrived as…) would accept Jo Borras’ challenge to address/refute his take on the financials. I for one find his logic on that front initially compelling. As for the “virginity shield” snark at which some have expressed umbrage, “de gustibus non est disputandum.” I actually think it ( the Elio) looks pretty cool, but not being a virgin find the issue moot, and so again humbly suggest we refocus on the math-y bits.

          • Jeff See

            I was a fan when I got to articles by Jo. I was researching it, otherwise I would never have ran across such an obscure blog. I then lost that urge once I realized that the only people in the industry talking about Elio, are themselves, and people like this. Even their listed vendors aren’t speaking up about it. It doesn’t lend itself to confidence.

            I’ve since lost interest in Elio, not because of the things people are saying, but more about what Elio _isn’t_ saying.

    • terry

      Pretty sure Honda was a pretty well established company when they started producing cars. They had pretty thick wallets. And they didn’t ask for your money before producing a single car. Suckers!!!

  • Campisi

    If this vehicle manages to even approach viability in the US market (assuming it even hits the market), all it will do is convince Nissan and Tata of the market viability of truly low-cost new vehicles; the subsequent introduction of the Nano and whatever’s coming down the Datsun pipeline would completely steamroll a three-wheeled indy-band oddity that is the Elio.

    • AZ

      Doubtful, Nano was pulled because it could not meet regs, plus the bad press of the Nano catching on fire after dealer.

    • AZ

      But it might get Toyota to build the i-ROAD.

      • Jo Borras

        I wish!

        • AZ

          Is the i-ROAD considered a “virginity shield” too?

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            Absolutely, but they’ll sell 10,000 or so per year.

          • Richard Joash Tan

            but that is the part of the Ha:Mo program in Japan

    • Jo Borras

      Guys, low cost does NOT = demand. If that were a thing, we’d all have Zune phones and that Microsoft Surface thing would be selling like hotcakes.

  • AZ

    Comparing a trike to an automobile is pointless. This article is so slanted and devoid of reality. How many motorcycles, trike owners get loaners when in shop for repairs?
    Obviously does not comprehend that dealers will not service vehicle. Setting it up to have a national chain work on vehicles. Plus Elio will tell you this, but it will require you to listen or you may have to read, you know actually do some research
    Dealers who cares how many dealers? If we are going to continue comparing a 3 wheeler to a car, how about Tesla? How many dealers does Tesla have? Don’t you buy those things online? How many were sold? Compare an Elio to something similiar(it’s been a while) you know an Isetta or a Messerschmitt. How many trikes, motorcycles or if you must continue comparing to a car, a used car that costs somewhere in the neighborhood of $6800 (you know the price of an Elio) were sold last year in the USA. Comparing a $6800 3 wheeler to a Swedish car that typically sells for six times more than the cost of an Elio because of sales figures, is well as ignorant and uniformative as this article.

    • Jo Borras

      Even with a national chain doing service, $150 per vehicle for both warranty and liability coverage isn’t enough – unless that “warranty” is “No warranty.”

      That said, let’s compare the Elio to another American company, Genuine Scooters, which offers a comprehensive 2 year warranty and nationwide roadside assistance for 2 years and unlimited miles. THAT costs them much more than $150 per vehicle.

      • AZ

        Again at least do some research, what does it cost them (Genuine Scooters) per vehicle. You don’t know? You should, before making that statement. What is the rate of component failure? How many miles does the average owner put on their vehicle? I’m waiting. Companies are pretty smart these days, they know rates of failure for components etc. How many Genuine Scooter owners did you interview? How many miles did they put on vehicle? How many had warranty work performed… Heck I had a vacuum with extended warranty that broke 28 days after warranty expired. Manufactures know how long things last to the average consumer. Their is no all new, ground breaking technology in the Elio. All existing tech. I thought the instrument cluster looked familiar in the Elio, I had seen it before in my F150.

        • Jo Borras

          I do know, it’s well over $700. I’ve spoken to well over a thousand Genuine owners at various rides, and several owners put about 5000 miles/year on their bikes. What’s that? You’re talking out of your what? Exactly. Go learn something. Come back to this site in like … let’s say a year. You should sound like you’re older than 14 in about a year. Not much, you understand, but at least it will seem to someone that you are a real potential buyer of something.

          • AZ

            Geez you have spoken to well over thousand owners all of a sudden, and now you magically know warranty costs. Amazing. Most people would lead with these statements, but you didn’t, now they just come out of no where. It’s amazing you didn’t compare Genuine’s warranty cost to Elio’s projected warranty costs in the article. Since you spoke to ALL those owners. Instead you compared Elio to Volvo and Mini. BRILLIANT!!

          • Jo Borras

            Not all of a sudden, I worked with them for over a year, and still regularly talk to a number of their employees/club members and lurk on Modern Buddy. Speaking of lurking: you should do more of that, and less of whatever you think this ridiculous banter of yours is.

          • AZ

            Yeah that’s why you brought it up in article right. Warranty costs of Elio vs. Genuine which you supposedly have, but you don’t use it in article. We already had people post here you should take a journalism 101 class. YOU COMPARED A TRIKE to a CAR. Your previous Elio article went on and on and on about the Elio being a motorcycle. This article it’s compared to a car. WOW!

        • AZ

          Oh yeah, aren’t there Tesla stores in malls? Isn’t Tesla fighting dealer laws in Texas? So “dealers” aren’t really needed are they? So your whole financial thing in Miami for example is off. All Elio would need is a kiosk in the mall

          • Jo Borras

            You do realize that the space Tesla has in malls is “retail space”, right? It costs money? Are you really that ignorant of how business works? I mean, if you are that’s OK. Just let me know and I’ll stop picking on you/giving you chances to embarrass yourself.

          • AZ

            Does a kiosk in the mall cost as much as other retail space in Miami? That is/was the point. I already dumbed it down for you, I guess I’ll have to dumb it down even more for you. Does a kiosk in the mall cost as much as store front with a minimum square footage requirement? NO. Do you comprehend that/? Should I explain again? The only one embarrassing themselves is you. You think I’m 13, and I completely discredited you.

          • Jo Borras

            Mall of America rates (per http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/63012) are about $2300/mo. or 15% of sales, whichever is higher, for its mall kiosks. That jives with the people I’ve talked to at Sunglass Hut and Oakley in my previous life doing cross-promotion projects with Mercedes in Florida. Cost per ft. of KIOSK space seems to be higher. Assuming each kiosk also sells its 174 unit quota x $5959 (no discounts) and no accessories/add-on warranties, that’s $1,036,866 in total revenue, so that 15% would come to $155,529.90 … which (even you have to admit) is higher than $6000.

          • AZ

            Why would the Elio be in the mall of America? The target market is someone that would shop at a strip mall or an outlet store. I guess I need to dumb down even further for you…………Nice telling someone to go die now because you don’t agree with their comment. Real classy.

          • AZ

            Where did Elio show their vehicle in West Branch Michigan? Wait for it, wait for it, an outlet mall. Maybe in addition to showing vehicle they were studying the feasibility of selling vehicle at such a location.

  • JACK BARBER

    From what I have seen in just 2 weeks since I noticed this Elio on facebook it went from 25k likes to 48K likes…. People are looking for something to save them Money ,and made in the USA ,lots of baby boomers are in on this thing and there are a lot of them driving golf carts ,haven’t seen any #’s on them stupid looking things :) My brother told me when i was a kid that money talks and Bull shit walks , guess we shall see June of 2014..

    • Jo Borras
      • JACK BARBER

        Yep well guess I shouldn’t bought the VW bug years ago ,and put that Baja kit on it ,with the rebuilt engine from CA, and the weber carbs ,wagon wheels 7 inch on the front 8 inch on the back with 19×15′s and drove it on the beach for 4 years, that after market part I bought for the 68 bodyI used on a 1974 transmission because it had the higher 4 gear to get the car running top speed on the new freeways here in the us…. they still building them in South America or did they stop making that piece of junk?

        • Jo Borras

          I’m not sure how that relates to any of this, but hopefully you still have it and are still enjoying it! The last one rolled off the line in 2003.

      • AZ

        yep just like you getting an “UP” vote by a “GUEST.”

        • T Adkins

          You have a problem with me being a guest? and up voting what I feel is funny or right, or that I agree with. I have had issue logging in so it has just been easier hop in as a guest. You should be happy I am having difficulty logging in, as I cant vote you down unless I log in.

          • AZ

            Awesome, so you too believe it’s ok to tell someone to go die now, because you don’t agree with them. You and JB deserve each other

          • T Adkins

            I was going to write something not so nice to her as well but waited, and was very entertained. Far a lady who claims she did not even finish the article, then said she could not waste her time and energy, But she only wrote so many time/energy wasting posts that for a short time every 5th post was from her.

            But you like her still wont argue with Elio’s own finances, that Jo pointed out in Miami, a huge potential market btw, you could rent/lease 25sqft of space. Prison cells are larger than this, but 5 sales people customers and cars are supposed to fit in $6000 worth of retail space.

            As for, die we will all die, death is part of the journey of life, he merely asked to continue her journey to walk her path, to go with god….. was the way he said that rude yes… was it funny i think so.

            Was Jo an ass to her.. yes was she rude and an ass in her comments… you bet.

  • Bikestore

    Sounds like your a redneck that drives a big 4X4 deer killing machine. Or paid by the oil companies throwing hate around.

    • Jo Borras

      Sounds like you don’t read this blog much, spanky, but I’ll play this game: I am two-wheels only and frequent public transport in Chicago. As for “hate”, that’s ridiculous.

      • Bejezus

        “Frequent public transport”
        And YOU are calling a cool three wheeler a “virginity shield?” How often DO you get laid on that couch in your mom’s basement? What is the upkeep cost on that often broken ( hence the need for public transportation) Chinese scooter, and is your boyfriend gentle with you when you play on that rough 1970s plaid couch in the basement?

    • jim

      Ok…..so if someone drives a big 4×4 he’s a deer killer? Oh my God! What an evil person. My guess is you believe in killing unborn babies because you ride a bike? See your logic?
      I’m an American, period. I plan to buy the the three wheeled elio and I kill deer. What does that make me according to your liberalism? Stop spreading so much hate!

    • c whittle

      U right..he’s just another dumb ass…..

  • Bikestore

    Sounds like your a redneck that drives a big 4X4 deer killing machine. Or paid by the oil companies throwing hate around.

    • Jo Borras

      LOL! Again? You must be a mindless comment bot chasing the wrong goose. Do more research before you pick your targets, I think, lest ye continue to look as silly as an anonymous commenter on the internet.

  • EMCM

    If Elio can not build it. Please sell the kit,I want one!

    • Jo Borras

      I’d be 100% behind a kit version of this!

      • AZ

        No you wouldn’t, it’s a virginity shield remember? Remember this article ?
        “Op-Ed: Elio Motors Thinks it Can Sell This 3-wheeler. It
        Can’t.”

  • Jim G

    can’t compare this car to a Yugo. I would never consider buying an ugly vehicle like a Yugo. this car is very cool, very inexpensive, a practical 2d vehicle for many people, and made in the US of A! IMHO, this vehicle will outsell the Mini, the Land Rover, etc. that are far, far more expensive to purchase. frankly, it is a preposterous comparison (but now I’m starting to sound a wee bit histrionic like you…)

    time will tell if this car company is successful or not, but I think it will be. we’ll see….

  • doliver

    full of opinion with negligible facts, was actually looking for some facts here and encounter some dating instructions need to check the By Lines before wasting time
    entirely my fault

    • GJPinks

      It’s understandable Doliver, if you were unaware of JoBo’s hatred for the Elio and his desire to mislead himself and others, you might be fooled into believing he knows what he is doing.

      The Mini, Fit, Smart and Fiat are all supposed to be small inexpensive cars, they are not, they are small expensive little carlets.

      I admit that the Elio will have a tough time getting to market, there are so far no stupidly rich internet wizards pumping 10s or 100s of millions of dollars into the effort. However The Elio is what the VW Beetle started as, a low cost, easy to work on set of wheels. If they are able to bring this to market, it will be a paradigm shift.

      I look forward to the release of production models.

      And remember Jo only has 153 twitter followers, even though he twitter baits 274 accounts. An embarrassing 107 LinkedIn Connections and about the same number on Facebook.

      If he really had any knowledge and ability, his numbers would be far larger.

      • doliver

        everyone has their opinion
        I follow anything that counters energy dependence
        and believe in Innovation, good old American know can solve just about any problem
        Start up companies are a tough read
        However if any company comes to the market place with reliable energy efficient USA manufactured personal transportation for less than 10K they will capture a consumer market in this country of about 20 million just my opin

      • AZ

        AWESOME comment!

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  • Edro

    I think what you fail to understand in this article is that most new car companies have financials just like this one. Do they over-estimate sales – of course! Do they not consider additional costs – yes! When ford motor company set up shop and launched the first car they basically had no shot at success – and here they are many years later a force in the global automotive world. The dollars owed to continue this venture are frankly peanuts – they are a rounding error in the grand scheme of things to those who are invested. Their chance of success I give at 20%. But to say they are dumb and even frauds is somewhat bizarre – what would they have to gain? Your suggestion that it’s for write-off purposes shows that you really don’t understand business. Nobody funds a “write-off” like this simply to shelter money – there are dozens of ways to do that in a much smarter way and these are not dumb people. They are very successful people. Nobody travels across the country showing a car around so they can…what? Why all the effort to collect $100 deposits and completely ruin your name? I think they are trying their best and I wish them much success. And for those who slam Jo for not being a good journalist – folks he’s not a journalist. He’s just a blogger. My 12 year old has a blog…

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      Here’s what they have to gain: the whole time this is going on, they can pull salaries. In fact, it seems like they are, if you read the financials. They’re spending millions, and there’s not a whole lot of indication that they’ve got tooling, engines, or even federal approval to put the vehicle on the roads.

      If I said to you, “Edro, here’s my business plan. Loan me $100,000 to build this business …” then I gave myself a $50,000 salary for 2 years and shut the doors after 2 years without building anything, would you say I’ve “gained nothing”?

      Not that that’s what’s happening, just that the comment that the people involved have nothing to gain by setting sky-high goals and collecting funding all along the way – especially now that they’re years behind their initially promised production start date – is a bit naive.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      Also: how do you know I’m not 12? That’s a very good point, and I think the anger the people here are lobbing at this blog is indicative of what an emotional connection they have with the idea of jobs, ‘Murican-made vehicles, etc., and very little to do with anything approaching reason.

      Bald monkeys clinging to a mossy rock on the outskirts of the galaxy …

      • Olivia

        I would hope you are not 12. You did, after all, write this article for gas.org. And frankly- the anger and emotionalism was started by you, Jo Barras, not the replies in this post (though, obviously, it was continued here). This is what I see in this article: A concise, well explained article detailing some serious flaws in Elio Motors’ business plan. The points you bring up, Jo, are sound, reasonable, and should be serious cause for worry for any “fanboi” of Elio motors. However, your tone, condescending attitude, and snide remarks completely smear the professional purposefulness of this article. . . Case in point- I did the same thing up above when I said “Fanboi”. There is no excuse for that in professionaly unbiased journalism. I could have just as easily put something like Fans or supporters, or even hopeful followers. You, Jo, are the one that should consider the words “journalistic integrity” when typing up a post. We’re just visitng here. Its too bad you did not write this article in a proper professional way… the meat of it is truly informative.

        • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

          1. this is a blog, not the New York Times. As such, it differs from such storied old edifices of journalism both in that I can get away with saying what I really think, and in that it has a future.

          2. that said, the news for Elio seems to be going from bad to worse: http://gas2.org/2014/05/01/another-company-may-snatch-elio-motors-factory/

  • rogwild

    Hey Jo; guess the Caddo Commission did not READ or HEED your ‘astute’ financial analysis, they voted 11-1 to purchase the Plant. Guess YOU are in the minority! ;-)

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      They bought it to scrap it. Stay tuned.

      • rogwild

        Utter Nonsense, and a BOLDFACE LIE! Nobody on the Caddo Commission ever stated ANY intent or desire to sell the Plant for SCRAP. Your new article is plain — C-R-A-P — !

        • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

          1. Yeah, someone on the Caddo commission talked bout scrapping the plant on TV. Follow the link.
          2. The company hired to manage the plant has scrapped plants before, and cites it as part of their skillset.
          3. I think you mean “bald faced lie”. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bald-faced

      • Dave Bales

        Dave B.

        Well, guys….The really neat thing about perusing the variety of very spirited comments and responses here, before offering anything myself, is pretty obvious.

        Just look at all the reaction to even the possibility of success for
        this odd vehicle!…’Seems the time is near for lots of folks to take seriously, a well-considered effort in this general direction!

        Sure, there have been a lot of failed pretenders and most have suffered from one or more levels of incompetence or inexperience, most have lacked a design/configuration that is well and fully developed for a readily identifiable market. Many of these customers share most of the positive views seen here in these commentaries and are only waiting for the arrival of the right product. To me, the conversation still needs to focus on good design and real value.

        Nobody will be making any purchase commitment on the strength of somebody’s experience in sorting out cost-of-business, R.O.I. factors or any investment or business strategy. The importance of a good business foundation goes without saying but of course is of no interest to prospective customers, except as it shows in the results. Purchase decisions will be made on whether the vehicle strikes the right chord, fills a real or perceived need and promises the right mix of fun, utility, comfort, safety and economy.

        Within the next few months, you will see my name attached to publicity and fundraising for a line of vehicles designed specifically to address those desired characteristics in spades, within a leaning, low-riding configuration sharing most overall dimensions with Harley, Victory or Honda road bikes having attached luggage. It will satisfy those who would not wish to give up the fun of motorcycling in order to be able to ride open or enclosed, comfortable in any weather, as well as commute with great fuel economy and carry a passenger plus storage enough for shopping or long road trips.

        Too much for now…hope to touch base later, in another format.

  • Diz

    Elio may well fail, Jo, but your obvious glee at the possibility and your childish disdain for those who hope to see it succeed lowers your credibility on the issue to “look for someone else for analysis and advice”.

  • Lex

    If Paul Elio fails this manufacturing endeavor, he should consider packaging this as a kit car. This way small businesses can assemble these in local areas. After 9/11 why doesn’t get the saying” don’t put your eggs in one basket”? All it takes is unions to shut down a whole centralized complex.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      Agreed.

  • Mr pragmatic

    Check out Cape Coral Fl. Kia sales… 1 dealer…Over 1000 cars a month! 250k units for 120 dealers doesn’t seem much of a stretch.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      That’s a ridiculous comparison, and I’d be willing to bet that either a) you know that comparing a stellar, top-performing dealer that offers several different kinds of vehicles, roadside assistance, an established service and parts network, and a proven financing scheme is a vastly different thing than Elio’s proposing, or b) you have no idea what you’re talking about.

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  • Baub

    You’ve obviously got something either personal against Elio or any constructive attempts by anyone to develop a means of personal transportation that a) doesn’t cost an arm-and-a-leg, and b) gets great gas mileage. Any start-up in the transportation business is always a GAMBLE, and for someone to take on that daunting endeavor shows they’ve got way bigger balls that you.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      This reminds me of an old idiom in racing that goes like this: the number of trophies you’ll win vs. times you’ll crash is in direct proportion to the size of your brains vs. the size of your balls.

      Have fun hitting the wall.

    • Jo’s Mom

      I remember when Jo’s gonads dropped and he became a “Man”, it was in the shower when him and I were bathing in that french hotel. You are a bad man criticizing my son like that, he is a good boy and only tells the truth.

    • DBlain

      Just buy a v-twin Yamaha motorcycle for commuting and chuck some saddle bags on it. You will look way better, get the same 80mpg as the trike, have more fun driving it, etc. This car is not built for winter driving judging by its height from the pavement, so the places it would be popular are places you could commute on a bike most of the year, anyway. Insurance will probably be cheaper on a v-twin, too, because it’s already cheap and already been on the market for ages in high volumes.

      • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

        Very well said!

      • Jeff

        Sorry, the math doesn’t work.
        A 750 cc V twin from Honda (water cooled) cannot reliably get more than 50 mpg on the freeway. This is from 8 years of experiance driving one. The only way to break that figure, repeatedly and reliably, on that size bike, is to run it in areas without traffic at around 50 mph.
        The Elio claims of high milage are based on better areodynamics than a motorcycle. I hope they are correct. I think its an interesting concept, and if the milage and performance figures are at least close to claimed and the price under $10,000 I think it would sell well. By well, I’d figure to lop a zero off of the figures given in this article though.
        If that financials are as represented here, I don’t hold out a lot of hope though.

        • fartyblartfast

          Bingo. Every old Japanese big four cylinder bike is capable of putting in impressive economy, but you’d die of boredom doing it. 60mpg from a GS850, but at freeway speeds of a yawn-inducing 50 to 55mph, while I kept pace with a smaller bike I was accompanying.
          To lend some context to that – in the 60s, 650 twins on strangulated carbs were capable of returning an average of 60mpg – an average, not something to try to achieve.
          I suspect the Elio claims are pie in the sky, as most are.

  • DungeonMaster68

    Who the hell is Joe Borras? Never heard of this guy. I am guessing the largest financial risk he has ever taken, was taking out student loans to go get a worthess journalism degree at some liberal arts college.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      Right, because no one who hasn’t risked jumping out of a plane without a parachute is qualified to tell you it’s a bad idea. LOL You Elio supporters really crack me up!

      • Jamie Sue

        I’ve been following the Elio with interest. The financials you’ve posted are not viable as they stand, however; they remind me of the type of financial projections normally used to woo investors. After assembling dozens of documents designed to gain investor interest, I’ve seen some pretty tall tales written in the financial reports of start-ups. Elio’s financial are not the worse I’ve seen by a long shot.That doesn’t necessarily mean the Elio is doomed to fail, but it may not be able to meet its projected price-point, distribution numbers, or be able to include all amenities currently advertised.

        The Elio is not non-starter as a project. Creative marketing solutions and vendor/service contracts might help reduce the price-point. Production time and production volume are going to take longer than planned (I think we all can agree on that), but where there’s a will, there’s a way. From what I’m seeing from enthusiastic supporters of the Elio on the comment threads across your blog posts, there’s definitely a will.

        I’ve been looking for an alternative to a second, conventional, car for quite a while. I’ve looked at everything from scooters to motorized rickshaws. I know I don’t want a motorcycle or a scooter because the weather is inclimate where I live for most of the year. Plus I’m not sure how one would wear a dress and ride a motorcycle to work without arriving unkempt and disheveled.

        I don’t want another used car with the used car headaches that come with. I want the vehicle to be street legal and able to drive at highway speeds. I also want to be able to take a passenger with me (child), so that rules out side-cars and other nonsense.

        I want to be safe in a collision. I don’t expect perfection, but after I saw how well my Kia Rio took a hit in a major collision (crumpled from both ends and not a scratch on anyone in it), I’m pretty confident that small cars can be safe. The Elio (if it rolls out anywhere close to its projected price-point) fits my needs for a second, less expensive, fuel efficient commuter vehicle. I understand, Jo, that you are severely biased against the Elio. That’s ok. You don’t have to like it’s goofy three-wheel design, but I lost my virginity a long time ago and don’t need my car to be “sexy” or “chic” or even “luxurious”. I’m not scared of non-traditional body styles in cars. I am excited by innovation!

        I would love to see the Elio roll off the production line and into my life. There are many other people who are also looking for smaller, more affordable, commuter car. I think you are underestimating demand, especially demand driven by women drivers. I want to see the physical plant open and begin operations before I’ll plunk down cash on the Elio dream, but if they can get this concept car to market (more power to them!) I’ll be in line to buy.

  • Markwbrooks

    A fun read, and love the comments, Hey Jo your becoming a real Click magnet! But don’t get carried away, that’s Click not chick magnet….

  • Fred Flintstone

    At least this vehicle company is not like ZAP motors, or is it. Sell some stock in the company, pump the stock price up then dump it……wait that sounds like Coda or Tesla or any loser stock.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      Excepting the facts that ZAP had manufacturing capacity (Elio, to date, does not) and Tesla’s stock is skyrocketing, you almost made a point!

      Maybe get help from Wilma next time.

  • Bob

    I had doubts when I posted $250 dollars down payment, but being from Louisiana and hoping for a chance at more jobs in our state was willing to risk it. People purchase lottery tickets beyond that amount annually, so what the heck.

    Sounds like pre-sales are pretty meager, it’s worth a try, I hope something comes of it. They should have planned a small start to get their production and suppliers worked out.

  • 98Grand-5.9

    Seems pretty biased to me. An affordable, small, cheap operationally vehicle is one thing this country needs. Seems we can’t convince the numbers of people that drive motorcycles in most of the rest of the world. I’m looking to buy or build such a vehicle and couldn’t come close to that price (looking at $12k minimum) to build my own. If it’s what is advertised I’d pay $10-12K for it anyway. I’m almost sure they are low balling the production cost. I wish them the best of luck and hope to be getting in line as soon as production begins.

  • Royo

    Both the article and the comments are “great reading.” I’ve had two certified belly-laughs and a whole gaggle of chuckles. Jo, you have a fine writing touch and I thoroughly enjoy the salty flavor.

    The article makes a point that I think that we all can agree on…that it is tough sledding by any measure to launch a new vehicle. Competition, financing, designing, manufacturing, distributing, and servicing all come together to make it look like it is an impossible task. I’m one of the “misguided souls” that put down $1K on the impossible bet…and I’ve already gotten my money’s worth reading the all of the emotional buzz out there on the Elio. The odds are certainly stacked against it, but I sincerely hope that Paul makes a go of it.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      I hope you get your car or your money back, amigo. Good luck!

  • Logical Thinker

    While yes, it is true that the Elio car appears to be a vision of a mad man’s reality, I remember a man much like this Paul Elio. His name happens to be Preston Tucker. The situation that he was in happens to be nearly identical to Paul Elio’s predicament: High gas mileage, sleek design, strange features, low price, with people skeptical and unsure of a new design, engine, size, and shape – sound familiar to our “virginity shield” car? While Preston Tucker’s car production was shut down, his innovations were eventually incorporated into today’s car. Things such as the seat belt were put into today’s cars because of Preston Tucker. I feel that we have the same sort of situation at hand.

    Side Note: The fact that the author writes this car as a “virginity shield” should not be applied into this article. While the Elio is in fact a strange, new design, the fact that it appears to be a “virginity shield” is irrelevant.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      Except that Tucker had manufacturing experience and his car was big enough for an entire family. That said, anyone who thinks a car’s appearance is irrelevant to its success and still has the balls to refer to himself as “Logical Thinker” isn’t all that “logical” or that much of a thinker, IMO.

      PS
      The Tucker Torpedo “legend” has more to do with Oliver Stone than any kind of “revolutionary design”, or have you never heard of the Tatra T87? Preston had heard of it – and he ripped it off blatantly.

      • Logical Thinker

        Tucker’s car reason for having a car big enough for a family is because it was aimed at the family demographic. If you had done more research than just the financials, you would have known that the design of only two seats is deliberate.

        When designing this vehicle, they did a survey and found out that about 70-80% of people drive alone. This was the demographic that the Elio Motors company was aiming for. That way, they were able to lower the cost of the car significantly for production and the consumer.

        I see that you either only read my comment once, or glanced over it (probably both). I did not say anything about the appearance being irrelevant; Merely the fact that your opinion about it being a virginity shield was irrelevant. Your opinion is just that – an opinion. It contained no facts about WHY it was a virginity shield, other than that it just looked weird. Might I say that anything that is “new” or “inventive” or “innovative” looks weird?

        PS
        I must thank you for taking the time out of your busy day to both read my comment and respond to it. I thank you for your criticism.

        PPS
        Thank you for the compliment on my masculinity. Made my day.

      • Mobius1

        Elio also has manufacturing experience, considering that his job was designing cars to be manufactured. And to a certain extent, a very large extent, car appearance is one of the lowest factors in buying a car according to every study ever done on the matter (Consumer Reports for example). People’s number one “thing” they look for in a vehicle is HP or MPG, then it’s drive-ability/safety , upgrades, brand, and then it’s looks. Let’s take the fox body mustang, it looks like a POS and it sold a ton! Or the Mustang 2, which looked great but everything else sucked and you STILL can’t get people to buy it decades later.

        • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

          The Ford Mustang II sold over 250,000 units in its best year, 1974. The new Mustang, which has more HP and gets better MPG hasn’t sold over 200,000 units in a given year since 1979/80 (the last year of the Fox body).

          In fact, the year *MY* Fox body Mustang was built (1987, and 5.0 GT + GT40 heads and shorty headers, which my mom put on when it was her car, bought new), Ford sold about 170,000 units. With better MPG and more HP, the current Mustang sold less than *HALF* that in 2012.

          Methinks your logic is genuinely flawed, and your information is based more on preference than reality.

          http://www.autonews.com/article/20131205/OEM04/131209932/ford-mustang-repolished-for-2015-with-global-ambitions#

  • Informative Inquirer

    People should know that the sticker price has been adjusted to a total of $6,800, instead of just below $6K. Even then, it still will be quite a feet to get up into those figures needed!

  • Wade

    I am A wheelchair vet with only A right hand & foot: licensed for 3 wheel motorcycle with steering wheel & automatic: I will drive there to buy one near the 1st day I can. Why did it take so long? ps. I will pay double the asking price. I read it will happen.

  • A

    I might take this article more seriously if it didn’t have so many typos.

  • SapAuthor

    Wow, i must say, that any point Jo was trying to make just got lost in his irate banter and attacking his readers. I must agree with most here, you really should not be writing articles if you don’t do so in an adult manner. If the purpose was to inform people, it was lost on attitude. no one is perfect but i would take this as a friendly tip: be respectful, you’ll get a lot more respect back.

  • Alexandros Cubby Doane

    Yeah… I was going along with this until you were saying shit like “Virginity Shield.” Like seriously? No way I am going to listen to a dumbass that has to throw insults to prove him point. And by the way only sad little virgin trolls end anything with “you have fun flaming me in the comments.” Because they know they have their heads shoved up really far into their asses.

  • ken

    make it electric and the stupid government will bankroll the whole project

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      Good point!

  • Ste Bunches

    yeah the author of this article’s a twunty mctwunt-twunt without much of a clue about how successful a low priced fuel efficient vehicle would be in the US (YO GOOGLE “GEO METRO” YOU WINDOWLICKER.) Personally, I’m signed up to buy two already. And we might make it four, putting two in storage.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      HA! Window-licker. :)

  • Chris Okarmus

    My question Jo is this, You start the article out about a payment due in Sept. It is now November any update??? Also you have it in this article a price point of 5959 when the price is 6800, what gives??

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      Plenty of updates. Search the site.

  • Ste Bunches

    Terribly written, terribly researched article. I learned more about Elio surfing for five minutes. And now I am going to go buy one.

  • c whittle

    Idiots like you are the reason we pay so much for gasoline.shoot down a good thing that we need just so the oil tycoons get richer..well fuck you………..the elio will be a top seller…people are sick of paying 20, 000 or more for a shitty thirty miles per gallon……tired of gettin ripped off…

  • disqus_O6n8m8A0Tn

    The tone you took interferes with the message, but still a very informative piece. I was interested in selling my CBR1000rr (that I can’t drive my daughter around with) and picking one of these up to drive instead of putting miles on my 335i but now I see there is alot of risk that due to the margins, even if this product initially took off its running to lean to support any significant recall problems without folding and leaving me with basically a kit car. I don’t think it looks like a virgin shield, but no way someone is getting laid inside that thing. Would be interesting if the transmission could handle a larger engine and/or forced induction.

  • ElioMan

    First off oh great investment advisor YOU are missing the greatest point of sales in America or any other place. If McDonalds only sold hamburgers they would not be open. Elio will thrive with add on accessories from the manufacturer. Yeah it’s a 6 thousand dollar car if you get it plain but this is America Jack and we don’t buy anything plain. Heck a 2014 Jeep Cherokee is 29,000 until u add all the extras bringing it to 41,000 dollars. I ride Harley’s and I think this is a cool vehicle so there goes your belief that it’s going to induce the plague if you own one. Car enthusiasts, college students, city dwellers, and yes even folks like you who are well I’ll keep it nice, will save big. Oh and if it is the next DMC then it will be a great investment that way too. This ain’t Belfast and Paul Elio knows it. We need hope, homes and jobs and this man is going to make it happen!!!

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      I think it’s funny that you think Harleys are cool.

  • southern_roads

    Another obnoxious, liberal media moron. Probably would have said the same thing about Tesla, (if he was old enough to remember it) which in my opinion is a much bigger “pipe dream” than Elios.
    So much for supporting the “Made in America” movement…………………

  • emili

    this person is full of bull crap. elio will be in production in mid aprile or September in 2015 will be in show rooms and yes the person who wrote the report. who do you work for the pedro company.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      I try not to pick on people who are trying to use English as a second or third language (as English is my second language, I sympathize), but this was too good …

  • steve

    Jo Barras is a pompous ass the feels like treating his readers as if he Is the teacher of a special ed class. your article is completely bias and im not sure what your problem is but you need to realize that you have to give a company the chance to grow. im not saying to invest in a car that is currently a prototype to be produced. I’m not sure why but for some reason it seems like some one pushed you on the play ground and now lash out at people that disagree with your point of view. Them “math” you are projecting with is just that a projection. these are not hard numbers of fact. So you cant call a company a failure on projected numbers. Maily I just wanted to let you know how much I don’t like you as a so called journalist…with your virginity shield of an article..

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      You hit it right on the head. I really do feel like a lot of these people should be in a Special Ed. class.

  • Paul Kinsella

    Jo Borras has no qualifications what so ever to judge anything. Look at his BIO!
    He is about as qualified to Judge Elio Motors as Barack Obama is to be President.
    Can you really get paid for writing Blogs when al you Resume says is, “I’ve been involved”, He must be a plant for Government Motors, Now he wants to explain all Costs involved in building and selling vehicles. The Elio will be one of the Simplest Vehicles to maintain in History! I hope the Elio is a Success and Hard Working Families have more money from gas savings to help on their budgets, I really hate Liberals who just list problems with no evidence whatsoever, along with having no idea what a Solution Might Be! I wonder what Jo Borras thinks is a great car? I wonder what he is driving? I am sure he is to involved in staying home living with his Mom and making up B.S. All Day! You are involved in being the King of B.S.! Does that “I’m involved with Motorsports and Tuning ever help you pick up Women (or Men) in a Bar. I hope all Jo’s Neighbors buy Elio Vehicles and refuse to let “Old Slim” take a test drive. Maybe his Mom will buy one and he will go back to living in the closet! I have never seen or heard of someone that hates Made in the USA and is against High Mileage Vehicles and all of the middle class saving money! What do you get our out of this? A PhD in “Involvement Studies”? Very Unpatriotic Jo and what central american country are you from?
    This is the last post I write on here. By the Comments, everyone knows you are a joke! What should we buy Jo? A gas guzzling Fiat Dodge or Chrysler after Billions in bail out Money from Tax Payers! Ever heard of a fact there Jo?

    • NMAXXS

      “He is about as qualified to Judge Elio Motors as Barack Obama is to be President.”

      Since Obama has been president for 6 years now, your statement above makes little sense…

      • Paul Kinsella

        The Office of the President is an Office/Position! Some Presidents “fill” the office legally and some fill it be increasing the Welfare State. I am sure all the Americans seeking employment will be racing to fill the Job Openings at the Benghazi Embassy, join the Military to go fight in Afghanistan and die for know reason, work at the IRS without a smidgeon of corruption, or have the NSA listen to every phone call and read every email ever sent by anyone in the USA and World Leaders Across the Board. Kind of like the Red Line in Syria on Chemical Weapons where the Russian Leader Putin made Obeewan go sit in the back of the BUS! Out of my Whole Paragraph you pick one sentence! You must not have any children or grandchildren that will have to pay for all the welfare you receive from money borrowed from China! Enjoy your free Medicaid that will disappear in 2016 there Nancy P.! Oh I forgot, you’re also involved!

        • NMAXXS

          Forgive me. I didn’t realize this was the right wing kook forum. Of course, if there is a point to all that dribble, you definitely have proven one thing; your complete ignorance on numerous topics. Congrats.

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            All Elio posts are basically Right wing cook forums. That’s Elio’s target victim: people who are easily swayed by rhetoric who can’t do math.

        • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

          My Lord you’re stupid! Do they let you out of the nuthouse to comment on the internet or do you have a laptop in your padded room?

      • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

        Right!? LOL

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      You tipped your hand too early with the Obama comment, especially for having a picture of some fat old guy shirtless as your profile pic.

  • Chris Bierschbach

    Sounds like Delorean. But with a lot less startup capital.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      And an uglier car. And no movie tie-in with Michael J. Fox.

  • Steve

    Knowing you would get flamed, why did you choose to post this drivel anyway? You may have a point in the financials but to start off by insulting the very same folks that will be reading this article is good journalism how exactly? Let your boss know that I am convinced that this website is never going to be read by the likes of me again… I guess you told us! BTW, who pissed in your corn flakes anyway?

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      I’m only getting flamed by simpletons. Doesn’t bother me.

      • J_JamesM

        Seriously. This is kind of distressing, how many simpletons there are.

  • futurevirginityshieldowner

    Hey folks, understand this boys whole existence revolves around people commenting on his asinine opinions. Ignore him and he only matters to himself. He needs an audience in order to feel important. Please stop giving him a reason to believe he matters.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      Actually, I need an audience to drive my site’s traffic numbers so I can sell space to advertisers. Feeling “important” is only a big deal to 8 year olds. Now, run along and go spread your “intelligent commentary” elsewhere.

  • Pingback: Gas 2 | Bridging the gap between green heads and gear heads.

  • Doug

    Did it ever occur to the author that sales numbers compared to Minis, Jags, Land Rovers, etc. may come in higher based on the actual number of people that can actually afford an Elio? I could never buy one of the makes used for the comparisons unless it was about 20 years old simply because I can’t afford them and they wouldn’t give me the things I want (mileage, reliability, ease of maintenance/repair, readily available parts). On the other hand, if I can get into a new car without increasing my monthly expenses, and leave behind my 17 year old clunker, I’m part of that market.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      Price doesn’t drive demand, though- if it did, the Yugo (and, later, the Geo Metro) would have been the best selling cars in America. As it is, you can buy a brand new Nissan Versa for about $10K, and they don’t sell more Versas than they do $30K Maximas. So where does that leave Elio?

  • TekBoi

    They have stated that it will probably be more like ONE retail dealer per market, with only a few markets getting two retail locations.

    Also, in a recent interview with Fox, Paul Elio stated that he’s already raised $47M. SO even with those absurd projections, they’d still be able to keep up.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      When did he assert that? Link?

  • Mobius1

    Well, I noticed a lot of comments from Jo Smo about “proving” that Elio could do this or that, or one thing or another and I’d like to say a couple three things:
    1. Jo, you’re a dick. It’s obvious you are a very condescending person and the kind of guy that deserves a good beating. I wish I knew you in person because if that’s how you talk to your girl, your parents, kids, strangers etc. I would be the one beating you.
    2. While it may be difficult for them to “sell” a building capacity of 250,000 vehicles a year, that is a building capacity. One that they could reach in several years. You also forgot that they have a goal of going global with this one factory, so 250,000 is a small number in those terms.
    3. Over 11,000 people have signed up and paid money to reserve a car that won’t be out for another year. Considering that they’ve already got almost 1/6 of their target first year goal sold/reserved OVER THE INTERNET, I’d say that they are well on their way to sell those 60,000+ cars in the first year. That’s almost 75 million dollars already banking on this. I won’t bother with the breakdown, but all Elio has to do is distribute it and in a year or two, they’ll be in the black if they cut out advertising. Oh, and I forgot to mention, since they aren’t being sold as “cars” they aren’t subject to the same dealership restrictions which means they can sell it direct to buyer over the internet eliminating the true need for a dealership and creating the need for a distribution point, which is what the Elio stores are.
    4. It’s obvious you aren’t a mechanic, as a very skilled mechanic, I can tell. The reason for the lack of a maintenance guy is probably because the Elio Stores are not only the maintenance bay (Elio states that the vehicles can be upgraded on the spot), but the engine is so easily serviced not only can the average person fix it, but the system is so simple and bare bones I’d be surprised if there was a high onset of maintenance required in the first six months. Which means that they’ll either have a couple salesmen double as mechanics, or they’ll be hiring a mechanic a little later on. Why hire someone you don’t immediately need? Hey mechanic, mop the floor for the next six months! Geo engines are very durable. I can’t remember the last time I saw one in the shop!

    To wrap it up, I think you need to learn to look at evidence objectively. Even if you don’t, that’s no excuse for being a dick. I don’t view this vehicle as a “virginity shield” because if I have to rely on a car to pick up chicks, well there’s a huge problem and it’s not the car. This is coming from a guy who drives a ’66 289 Mustang that he personally restored and is a mechanic for the Special Forces attached as a boat mechanic to the Green Berets. I’m about as manly as it gets. Oh, and those Green Berets I work with, they think it’s cool, even if it’s only for the gas mileage. Try telling them it’s a virginity shield, but then again, they’ve got more going for them then a car.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      1. even if I was the type of person who disrespected the most important people in his life, I doubt the type of clown who threatens people on the intertubes while posing with an “I don’t have a tiny penis, I swear!” rifle in his profile pic has ever beaten anyone.

      2. 250,000 still isn’t small, even on a global scale. That said, the goal (as stated in the paperwork submitted by Elio) is to sell 250K.

      3. Nah. Those 11,000 people still need to secure the rest of the funds- and that’s assuming the cars get built. How many people do you think will drop out if they can’t get financing? What percentage? 20%? 50%? It’s also clear that you’ve never had experience working in car dealerships OR buying cars, since the amount of time it takes to process the required paperwork and do basic maintenance and repairs can’t be split so easily as that. You have guys in the motor pool, right? Take them to a dealer and watch a salesman do a test drive, work a deal, then have them follow the dealers’ F&I guys while they turn and burn finance contracts, do the title docs, etc., then do the final delivery. Next, ask them if they could do ALL of that while simultaneously doing PDI on the car *AND* handling maintenance needs of existing customers.

      I know Marines are supposed to be bad at math, but that’s an unfair stereotype and the Marines I know and worked with every day were pretty sharp cookies. I assume you’d be, too- except you’re too busy trying to push an agenda and not doing math.

      To wrap it up your wrap up, I hope you enjoy your Mustang, thank you for your service to this country (although, really, you should have gone into the USAF- the grunt thing was obsolete by the time the first Gulf war rolled around) and I’m sorry you felt the need to defend your manliness on a public forum. I’m sure the therapists reading your assertions of masculinity won’t read any suppressed homosexual tendencies into it. Like, at all. ;)

  • Jo Borras

    How do you equivocate being mentally defunct with being homosexual? Like, really- I’m pretty sure there is literally nothing wrong/bad/shameful with being gay, but probably 100 out of 100 people wouldn’t be OK with being mentally deficient or illiterate.

    Please take your homophobic bulls*** nonsense to another site, and stop sending me emails under fictitious gmail accounts about why I should fire myself.

  • http://creditprofilenumber.com TheReason

    All of the people who have an issue with this article are obviously people who put money into this scam.

    • Maureen

      All? Well then, OBVIOUSLY, you’re wrong ….

  • Soren landfall

    Well, if you guys don’t like Jo’s “professionalism” then just simply laugh to yourself, tell yourself “He’s a moron” and move on. It’s the internet, nothing on the internet says you HAVE to be professional or god forbid a decent human being to do well at anything. Let him make himself look bad and make a fool out of himself. Skeptics are going to be skeptical. Deal with it.

  • Richard Clarke

    I would love to buy one. I drive 50 miles each way to work and because I live in the country so far from work, carpool is not an option. I drive a 35mpg Civic right now. So even if the Elio got only 75mpg, that is 40 extra MPG I would be getting. The car would pay for itself in less than 2 years on fuel savings alone. So why not have one just for work? As far as calling them “virginity shields”, ask any teenager, would you rather drive this to school or ride the bus? They can borrow mom and dads car for dates. Besides, as a parent, I couldn’t care less if my kids care kept them from “it”. I don’t want my 17-year old son making me a grand father anytime soon anyway.

    Anyway, just because this car may not be for you, doesn’t mean it would not have a place on the market. I hope they do well and I applaud their initiative. At least they are trying to make the world a better place and not just knocking something because they don’t like it.

    Just because you are entitled to your opinion doesn’t mean you are entitled to subject us to it.

    As far as the financials go, which is what the headline said this article was really about, I hope they figure it out and get into production soon! GOOD LUCK ELIO!!!

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      You wrote, “Just because you are entitled to your opinion doesn’t mean you are entitled to subject us to it.” as if you didn’t come here of your own free will and read my opinion.

      You don’t see that as a little bit silly?

      That said, I hope SOMEONE over at Elio figures things out and gets it right, otherwise there will be over 10,000 people who got fleeced, and that isn’t good for anyone, especially the people of Louisiana.

  • JD

    Stomp on innovation huh..? You probably drive a Hummer but for those of us out there that know HOV was our tax money wasted… need a good, fuel efficient commuter vehicle. So screw you and your negativity and stomping on good ol American innovation, head on back to Russia. All was said the same about Tesla and look where determination got them. But let me ask.. what exactly have you done to help mankind because it sure isn’t your posting of this bile. If I wanted to hear this dismal junk I’d watch the evening news. If you’re so smart how about suggestions for improvement, course of action, or ideas to better their cause of the creation of a new American company Elio Motors.

  • John

    Obviously you’re afraid about losing your status over lost market share. What you fail to reveal in all of your rant is that this is classified as a motorcycle and it would only make sense that it will distributed like one… Not a car dealership with way too many overpaid fools trying to grab a commission and a coffee bar. Think of it as a store similar to Walmart where you go in and pay the stated price ($6,800.00) and you leave with a car.

  • Right Wired

    Facts + Numbers + Logical Conclusions = Enemy of the enviroterrorist.

    I liked this car the fist time I saw it, when it was called the Volkswagen Lupo.

  • Stephen Rossel

    perhaps literary style lacks, but the numbers don’t lie, i’m not putting my $100 non refundeble dollars into Elio’s pocket so i can get on a waiting list for a vehicle

  • Glenn Curtis

    I want them to succeed because I want one. I commute 88 miles each way to work, and this thing would get me to and from work on under 3 gallons of gas. That being said, I am in the car business, and these numbers look like something my 5th grader threw together for an “intro to business” class.

    • http://pleonast.com/users/closetatheist Mr. Two

      I want one, too, but I just can’t believe the price. That’s 650cc motorcycle territory. I suspect the promised fuel mileage is reasonable without the a/c running because of the aerodynamics of the thing. Currently I’m riding a 500cc motorcycle (Royal Enfield), and my commute is 36 miles each way. But i don’t ride in the rain and I don’t ride in the Houston summer, so I use my car about 2/3 of the time. If the Elio ends up being produced, I think I would go for it at about $15,000, but what they’re predicting seems impossible. Certainly the number of units is impossible!

  • LPadrino

    How immature of the author to get involved in p!ssing contests with the commentors!

  • J_JamesM

    The sheer amount of pissy commenters is stunning. For all their accusations of bias, have they ever considered the possibility that Elio is either lying or wrong?

  • Michael Calvano

    Elio fanboys just don’t listen. They worship Paul and think the words 5 star safety rating and 84 MPG are an actual reality. “A fool and his money are soon parted” “Theres a sucker born every minute” “If it sounds too good to be true, it is”

  • jburr007

    At first glance I thought of Elio as an all weather moped, a last resort in the transportation world. The kind of thing you would drive after the Judge takes your license away for GUI. “No more Driving for you sir, you are a danger to everyone else on the road! Oh, you can drive an Elio of course. That isn’t going to bruise a kitten if it hits her head on!”

    I did think it was sort of cool in some weird, jitney-like way but I was figuring they would be a boutique builder, find a small industrial building and make them a few at a time to order and hope to break even. When they announced the deal on the closed GM plant I was thinking they were evil thieves who probably graduated from the Essential Oils industry and planned to actually turn this entire scheme into a multi-level marketing deal. When I saw them selling places in line for $500 a pop I really started to hate these thieving scumbags for being yet another horrible blight on the face of this planet. You know, like those people at the flea market that call themselves Doc and convince your Mother in Law that their supplements work better than the blood pressure meds the real Doctor gave her.

    Thanks for a great and revealing article. I thought you were wonderfully objective, considering you were writing about a con man who is bilking the public for millions of dollars to never build more than a few prototypes. Hey, maybe they Elio guys could get with the Solar Road guys and form the road of the future and really rip off all the stupid people in the world so bad that Walmart goes belly up! Now there is a silver lining if ever I heard one!

  • pearl87

    Wow, tell us what you really think! One has to believe this guy has some personal ax to grind, with so much vitriol. Anyway, most of the public that is excited by the prospect of this car have no interest in or understanding of car salesmanship. I only know that I am one of several hundred thousand people that is willing to walk in and buy one of these suckers day one, if they ever make it to market. They don’t have to sell me on the idea, because they had me at 84 MPG. And if you are a used car dealer, I know that isn’t sitting too well. NO ONE is buying used vehicles, that need repairs the day you take them home, now that the fed is printing gobs of cash for everyone to buy new. Good luck convincing anyone who wants an Elio that they should buy a used car! The whole point is to SAVE money – not throw it out a window.

  • Joshua Petersen

    Comparing it’s sales to the Volvo? Seriously? You don’t compare a disruptive technology & disruptive sales system to a by-the-book technology & sales system. That’s just bad analysis.

  • Vinny Belgrade

    I little rude perhaps in his comments but an excellent business analysis of a company that quite probably will fail. Probably will fail with a bunch of Louisiana’s taxpayers money too (nothing new there).

  • tshirtdr1

    The elio “retail store” is planning to sell these things as kind of an online in-store purchase. The customer puts everything into the computer and the sales staff is only around to answer pertinent questions. I think it will be a lot like the old service merchandise plan. For a $6800 car, I’ll be one of the first in line to get one for my teenager. (Not putting any money down at this point, though.) Lexus and all of those other ridiculous comparisons don’t even match up. That’s like comparing red lobster’s sales to mc donald’s sales. It’s a car that will pay for itself in gas savings. I think they will have trouble keeping up with demand for years to come.

  • Lee

    I would be willing to buy the Elio based on affordability and fuel saving. The Elio is suppose to sell for around $6,800 and get 84mpg compare to the Mini-Cooper $20,000 price and 30mpg. I hope Mr. Elio is able to give the American public what we have been asking from American motor companies for years, an affordable car with high mpg. Hopefully safety, warranty, etc. won’t suffer from the low price

  • greg2099

    While I would agree that it is unlikely to succeed, your comparison of sales to Jaguar Land Rover and others are beyond ridiculous when considering the price point. You can only be considered a hack for those obvious reasons. Very unprofessional to say the least.

  • Timothy Franklin

    I’m still not sure if this vehicle will make it to market, and I’ve been following it for over two years. That being said, I’m buying one if it comes to fruition. There’s one easy day for a salesman in that understaffed retail center!

    This car can definitely change the face of the auto industry, and I can promise you, if it fails, the senior execs at major automotive companies around the world will collectively let out a sigh of relief.

    Just sayin’

  • David

    The author’s concerns RE: the financials can be addressed simply and concisely by conceding that there is no way the thing will sell for $6,800 (because they have not realistically accounted for costs of the enterprise), yet acknowledging that most people with an interest in the car would happily pay up to the $9,995 mark for an 84mpg gas-miser that doubles the gas mileage of the closest competitor in a market where gas is inching closer to the $5/gal mark year by year.
    The author CLEARLY self-identifies as a douchebag with his pathetic and repeated “virginity shield” comments, thus announcing that he has no intention whatsoever to treat the topic objectively. Apparently the author does not know how to get laid without a midlife-crisis-mobile to advertise to prospective victims that despite his paunch, thinning hair, and other likely inadequacies, his wallet is still fat enough to buy the affections of some floosy.

  • freecounselingonline .

    How do you go bankrupt if you havent even started yet? I mean really? If you havent bought any materials then how can you owe anyone and go bankrupt?

  • Marty

    I can’t wait till Barras eats crow.

    A lot of time is wasted by dealers and salesmen in “dealing”. Doing the stupid I gotta talk to my boss to get permission stupidity. Add that to the endless add-ons a dealerships tryies to tag on at the last minute. Add that to searching for a finance partner for a different amount of money each time. Add that to multiple test drives through several vehicles.

    With Elio you only make one choice, the color. That saves Sooo much money right there. You aren’t running around to several dealerships trying to get the best deal, you simply buy the car.

    The mini is not a practical car, that is the biggest joke I’ve ever heard. The Mini is a novelty car people purchase because they are fashion conscience.

    The only problem I see is that the dealerships will hire workers with experience. And that means the wrong type of experience. They won’t know how to sell the car.

    I think 70,000 in the first year is reasonable. I don’t think sales will move up much farther than that and it might actually dip a little in the second year as it takes a while for people to get use to the idea.

    The thing is that this is not the answer to a problem which doesn’t exist. This is an answer to a problem which does exist. I recently had a student of mine buy a used nissan. It broke down and he was out the money.

    The truth is, without this car, people have to revert to the used car market. And you can’t get reliable from a used car dealer at $7000. You also are unlikely to get good gas mileage in a used car you will regularly drive alone. In addition, getting reasonable financing will be almost impossible.

    So, the used, not the new car market is his competition. Comparing it to new cars like the jaguar is just stupid.

    Two primary things that would sink this company are reliability and poor financing. Because this is what they are competing with in the used car market.

  • anon

    This post is what I find hilarious. First you compare their targeted sales vs Jaguar, Land Rover and Mini, all 40k Plus Vehicles pitted against a 6.8k sale price, hmm which one will people be able to afford more? Which car will appeal to more groups of people because it is far easier to shell out 6.8k as opposed to 40k and up? I just can’t figure it out!! What should I do buy a 6.8k car that gets 3 times the gas mileage, or should I buy a Land Rover for 60k and fill it up twice a week? How do people even let you post on blogs?

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      People let me post on blogs because I’m smart enough to realize that the best selling cars on the market are neither the cheapest nor the most fuel efficient (and not by a wide margin). People don’t let you post on blogs because you’re not.

      • Keith Cassinger

        Yeah but you’re still a jerk. saw you on another board acting all self righteous.

        • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

          I’d rather be a jerk than … really, whatever it is you call these saps that buy into the myth of Preston Tucker and say BS like “Apple started in a garage.”

          Have being not a jerk, I guess?

        • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

          @joborras:disqus @keithcassinger:disqus – “Yeah but you’re still a jerk.”

          And you have a poverty of imagination. Instead of calling “jerk,” why don’t you write a reasoned reply, refuting all of Mr. Borras’ contentions.

          • Keith Cassinger

            NOW I know you are related to him! Or sleeping with him. ! He is still arrogant, unlikeable and a jerk. He may actually know his stuff with the numbers, that will remain to be seen. So, I reserve the right to call him a Jerk in how he does it…and you a little gay for how you do it.

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            Keith is obsessed with men doing stuff to other men. Must be a closet case. It’s OK, Keith- your mom will probably love you just as much if you come out of the closet! (you homophobic douchebag)

          • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

            “Must be a closet case.”

            People hate most what they see in themselves. Freud wrote about that extensively.

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            That must be why I hate reasonable people with cutting insight. :D

          • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky
  • Keith Cassinger

    This author is a true condescending jerk. He comes accross more like a pissed off teenager than a serious writer/reviewer. I am putting my hold on an elio, and I bet you I still get laid more than you jerk.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      You’re a cute kid. I like the optimism!

      • Keith Cassinger

        Honestly guy, you come accross like a little angry chump. You’re unoriginal, your responses back to me are plain stupid and I know you would never act this way if you were standing in front of me because people like you are cowards. you are he type that gives someone the finger at 65 mph. Armchair warrior. Keep being the pissed off kid you are. Next time try a little unbiased writing and people may actually read your article…

      • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

        See my response to Keith Cassinger, above.

        • Keith Cassinger

          You mean that pathetic juvinile response? I wasn’t even talking to you you condescending little turd.The author is still a jerk who is jealous of Elio and you are obviously either his Mom or BFF. Either way pound salt little boy.

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            Uh-oh. Looks like Keith’s panties are in a bunch again. It must be tough going through life with such a thin, brittle skin, Keith-y boy. Try some of these: http://www.esquire.com/blogs/news/kareem-how-to-become-a-man and you’ll get less worked up about people’s comments about tadpole shaped “cars” you don’t own. LOL!!

        • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

          I blacklisted that homophobic douche. Hopefully he won’t be back with a different email account … but, if he is, I’ll ban him again.

    • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

      “I bet you I still get laid more than you jerk.” – I hear Elizabeth Carmichael is waiting for you.

  • Dennis Sweitzer

    (LOL) Quite an “apples to oranges” comparison … of course the Elio is not viable under the traditional business model against high end luxury vehicles.
    (or “apples to lemons” comparison, as the author may prefer).
    I figure if I have an extra $100, I’ll put it down as a refundable deposit.
    If I have an extra $10,000, I’ll still put down a $100 refundable deposit.
    By the time they fulfill the 25,000 orders ahead of me, it’ll be clear if the business model is viable (in the short term). Certainly a better bet than Las Vegas or the Lottery.

    • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

      All deposits are non-refundable. Look at their website terms.

      • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

        They do have refundable options.

        • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

          Oops. I stand corrected. If, and when, Elio declares bankruptcy, try to collect.

          Elio is in Michigan, and the plant is in Louisiana. Bricklin’s HQ was in Phoenix, and the plant was in New Brunswick. DeLorean was in Detroit, and the plant was in Northern Ireland.

          Déjà vu.

        • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

          Déjà vu.

  • Alpinia

    I need an interstate bomber for multistate trips. Needs to be sporty and get super mileage. Looking forward to seeing more cars like this.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      This would definitely be that!

  • R. J. Smith

    I’m planning to put $100 in with the full understanding I might lose it or not see anElio for a couple more years (or longer). Even if it doesn’t happen, we want the auto industry to know we all think this is a very good idea.

    • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

      It’s a non- refundable $1,000 deposit, not $100.

      • Isaac Carter

        Have you even been to the website? You are very ignorant and arrogant.

        • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

          “You are very ignorant and arrogant.” – I have two degrees and a professional license. I studied physics in college. There is no trike; it’s vaporware at best, and a scam at worst. Production has been changed from 2012 to 2014 to 2015.
          - A Can Am Spyder starts at $15K
          - A Smart starts at $13K; they’re not selling well.
          - A Ural starts at $16K
          - A Slingshot starts at $20K. Polaris buys engines from Rotax. The Slingshot engine is from GM’s Volt.

          Henry J. Kaiser gave up. Tesla is heavily subsidized; any state that gets Musk’s infamous battery plant, is foolish enough to put up $500M toward the plant. They’re buying a pig in a poke. Musk is also selling carbon credits to keep rolling. Elio is asking Caddo Parrish to put up $750M.

          I’ll leave you with two thoughts: Bricklin and DeLorean.

          This is a spindly contraption:

          • Keith Cassinger

            Anyone who would defend himself in an online comment board claiming he studied physics and blah, blah blah. is LYING. Also, even if it were true, which it’s not, you would be intelligent, but not smart. You are far from smart…

          • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

            “You are far from smart…”

            You are inarticulate. Tucker was smart:

        • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

          “You are very ignorant and arrogant.”

        • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

          “Have you even been to the website?”

          “…the following four non-refundable levels you choose.”

        • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

          “You are very ignorant and arrogant.”

          Preston Tucker built 50 Tucker Torpedos. From Wikipedia: “Tucker Accessories Program raised funds by selling accessories before the car was even in production. Potential buyers who purchased Tucker accessories were guaranteed a spot on the dealer waiting list for a Tucker ’48 car.”

          From Elio’s website: For $1000, “This is the ONLY level that locks you into a confirmed position on the non-refundable reservation list. You will receive a certificate that specifies and confirms your position by number.”

          Déjà vu.

        • Keith Cassinger

          Misha is a hack. He trolls around causing conflict on a lot of sites.

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            I like Misha. I hope he sticks around.

      • Keith Cassinger

        Back off little man. Are you Jo Barras with another username…most likely…baby.

        • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

          LOL! I wish! I never found a good pic of “Lizzie” for my post.

      • tdperk

        You have that wrong. There are multiple price options for the refundabls and the non-refundable deposit.

        • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

          I stand corrected. What I read is that the $100 is refundable. Try to collect.

          The landscape is littered with these: Bricklin, DeLorean, Kaiser. Then there was Elizabeth Carmichael, AKA Jerry Dean Michael. He made a good looking woman:

  • kldcoombs

    The numbers above make sense – but with the new pricing at $6,800 the margin (or $ available for operations) has increased by 20% – makes a more realistic business model. With that said I agree with those posting below that you are completely missing the difference between this car and others (which is why I am plunking down $1000 to get $1500 off of one if/when available).

    This IS an ADDITIONAL car, not a REPLACEMENT car. Elio doesn’t have to get you to decide that you want an Elio INSTEAD of your Volvo/Jaguar/Porsche or even your Mini, they have to convince you that you have use for an ADDITIONAL car that costs as much as a motorcycle (how many people have a motor cycle as their only vehicle?) that serves a completely different purpose, most likely commute.

    You can not compare this use case the use case of any of the cars you attempt to compare it to. Does this mean the company is going to succeed? Who knows? I think it will. More importantly, the logic in your post is ridiculous because it’s entire basis is that someone will choose this car OR another car as opposed to spending $6800 for an additional car that serves a specific, and real, purpose.

    • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

      $6800 was the base price of a Chevy-Geo Metro, in 1989.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      Huh? That $6800 is $6800. It represents an irreplaceable expenditure, and regardless of how it’s marketed, a person with $6800 will look at what that money could offer, and may very well buy a quality used car with 2 more seats and a larger trunk, and possibly better resale.

      • tdperk

        They will also be buying the used car’s mileage and service/repair requirements, which will likely be half that cost per year if it has any time on it. If they have a long commute, it’s way more expensive, and for seats they almost never use, if it’s for commuting.
        If I can get an Elio, I will. Then I will almost never drive the 7 seater, 6200lb SUV I now commute in; but I’ll be glad to keep it for when I’m hauling a bunch of kids to a camping trip or hauling the trailer.

        • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

          Instead of waiting for vaporware, get a Smart. They have a $99 lease. That’s practically giving them away. The Smart will do better in a collision than a trike.

          The Smart is a real car, made by a real company – Mercedes Benz.

          • kldcoombs

            Sorry – on the freeway at 75 MPH (if you can even maintain 75 MPH) my corvette get’s better gas mileage than a smart (I get over 30 MPG cruising at 75). Not kidding – I think smarts are OK for around town but not economical commuters.

            I admit that being able to maintain a reasonable speed for a commuter is a risk for the Elio. I am hoping that they are geared to achieve 70 to 80 with lower gear rations by limiting the top speed to about 100. Fingers crossed.

            I think that the risk that the car isn’t good is a bigger risk than the business model being wrong.

        • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

          Where do you get that “half the cost per year” BS? That’s nonsense.

      • kldcoombs

        I agree with your used car argument – and I almost waited to buy a used Elio for $4500 to $5000 after someone else took the 10% to 20% hit for driving it off of the . . . ummmmm . . . out of the store. I almost never buy new cars (I have purchased 30 cars in my life with only 2 o them being new).

        People will buy these new if they buy any other car new. They will buy these used if they are going to buy another car used. That is like saying that there is no market for a $20,000 hatchback because you can buy a seriously nice used BMW or Mercedes for $20,000. Not a great argument frankly.

        With that said, I don’t know if I am a common example. I have a corvette (2011 grand sport) 1996 SL 500 (less than 80K miles on it) and an ancient Cadillac. I use each of them for something different.

        Your question is valid, about why not buy a used car – you can buy some very nice cars for $6,800 including my 98 cadillac and 1996 SL 500 (over 100K new). Seriously, I will sell them both to you for $6,800 because I can get something nicer for the same money. If you are willing to buy a salvage title you can save even more (Not kidding or being sarcastic here, I am completely serious). some monster cool used cars for under $7K

        So what makes me want an Elio specifically? 95% of the time I drive I am alone – I have other cars for other purposes. ‘Normal’ compact cars don’t get 84 MPG or even close. Hybrids are built for stop and go. I actually like things that are a bit different as well. I don’t think that I am common – but are there enough people like me to allow Elio to be successful? Elio will need 1 out of 1,200 people want to own one. not insignificant for an auto – but not out of the bounds of reason.

        What will end it, and end it quickly, is if the car sucks. If it is noisy, rattles, etc. then it will never make it, because people who are willing to drop $6800 on a SECOND car will not tolerate crap. People who want to spend $7,000 on their ONLY car may tolerate crap.

        I actually hope that there are options for better interior materials, sound system, etc. I would actually spend an extra amount of money for nice leather and good sound in a place that I am going to spend a lot of time alone. As I said above they need one in 1,200 people to want one, I think that one out of 1,200 people will have a need for an incredibly economical commuter.

        • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

          I feel like difference between a $20K hatchback and a $20K Mercedes is that both offer a similar practicality equation for 90% of buyers: they’ll carry 4 people in reasonable comfort plus their luggage. The Elio doesn’t do that, so it’s competing with a $6800 used 2-seater or $6800 motorcycle, and it had better hope that 2 seater doesn’t have a trunk.

      • timriker

        I put a $100 deposit on the Elio because it provides 84 mpg on the highway and 49 mpg in the city, perfect for my freelance business as an interpreter. A low cost car with excellent mileage improves my bottom line. My other car is a 2014 Subaru Impreza Premium Sport, which is a great weekend & errands car. If Elio has to increase their price to $8,000, I would still buy it rather than an expensive hybrid or electric car.

        • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

          Glad you found something that works for you. Here’s hoping you get something for your money!

  • Isaac Carter

    It is cheaper than most motorcycles, gets better gas mileage than a Prius, will be easy to park in a parking garage, and safer than a Smart, Mini, Bug, etc. Gets double the gas and a third the cost of all of them. As a second car to save money and wear and tear on a family car, this this will sell. At $6800 the price model works.

    This design has a lot more going for it than just price and mileage. But the cars that do get the balance of cost, features, and efficiency right are the best selling cars. Since Elio is not trying to get you to use this as your only vehicle this model makes a lot of sense. Discounting the Elio because you don’t understand it is not wise. And you compared it to a Land Rover, so you don’t understand it…

    • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

      Let me introduce you to Elizabeth Carmichael: http://jalopnik.com/murder-transsexuals-and-the-price-is-right-the-story-464820740

      The least expensive Can Am Spyder is $15K, and Bombardier has economies of scale. It’s vaporware at best, and a scam at worst.

      • Isaac Carter

        The board members include James Holden, former DaimlerChrysler CEO; Ken Way, former Lear Corporation CEO; Hari Iyer, CEO of Pamban Energy Systems; and, Stuart Lichter, founder and Chairman of the Board of IRG, LLC.

        Your comparison is absurd.

        • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

          The same was said of Aptera.

          • Isaac Carter

            And Ford, Dodge, Apple, heck even Facebook.

          • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

            $1,000 non-refundable deposit, for a trike that doesn’t exist.

            Link to an actual, road worthy model. Video of one under its own power, on a public highway.

          • Isaac Carter

            Wait, you haven’t even watched any of the you tube videos of anyone test driving it? The anchor from fox and friends, car and driver, and many others have test driven it and like it.

            You have an option for a $100 refundable deposit as well, or you can wait until they are in show rooms.

          • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

            “The anchor from fox and friends, car and driver, and many others have test driven it and like it.”

            Links please.

          • Isaac Carter

            Look it up yourself

          • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

            There aren’t any. I looked.

          • Isaac Carter

            There are many of them, you didn’t look very hard. Go to you tube type elio test drive

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            LOL

          • Isaac Carter

            Is this a sure thing? Of course not, but these are solid people with a good reputation, every one of them. It would not be wise to discount them so easy

          • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

            “these are solid people with a good reputation” – http://www.slate.com/articles/life/transport/2010/01/was_the_yugo_really_the_worst_car_ever.html

            From Slate: “Occidental Petroleum…had just signed a “countertrade” deal with Yugoslavia…Finally, there was Lawrence Eagleburger, former U.S. ambassador to Yugoslavia and Kissinger Associates staffer, brought on board…”

            Say hello to Malcolm Bricklin. He has a plant in New Brunswick to sell you.

        • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

          Board members mean nothing.

          • Isaac Carter

            Wow, try telling that one to any investor. Careful, your ignorance is showing.

          • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

            Your epidermis is showing. :P

            In all seriousness, people get named to the board of companies all the time. That doesn’t mean they’ve put money into it- in some cases, they GET something in return for being on the board, since their presence is intended to lure in gullible investors … maybe like you?

          • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

            “their presence is intended to lure in gullible investors” – Say hello to Malcolm Bricklin. He has a plant in New Brunswick to sell you.

            From Slate: “Occidental Petroleum…had just signed a “countertrade” deal with Yugoslavia…Finally, there was Lawrence Eagleburger, former U.S. ambassador to Yugoslavia and Kissinger Associates staffer, brought on board…”

            http://www.slate.com/articles/life/transport/2010/01/was_the_yugo_really_the_worst_car_ever.html

          • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

            -”Board members mean nothing.”
            -”try telling that one to any investor”

            Let’s look at Yugo: From Slate – “Occidental Petroleum…had just signed a “countertrade” deal with Yugoslavia…Finally, there was Lawrence Eagleburger, former U.S. ambassador to Yugoslavia and Kissinger Associates staffer, brought on board…”

            http://www.slate.com/articles/life/transport/2010/01/was_the_yugo_really_the_worst_car_ever.html

      • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

        I’ve backed off on that. Initially, the financials made no mention of a $200 million gov’t funding play OR the fact that the main goal is to sell CAFE credits to GM and Ford (both gov’t subsidized), which is expected to bring in $600 mil. in revenue, annually, per Elio’s latest figures.

        Vaporware at best, a scam at worst, an actually viable business if you funnel hundreds of millions of tax dollars into it.

    • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

      Ahem

  • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

    You now Datsun just changed its name to “Nissan” and is now one of the largest and most profitable companies in the world, right?

  • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

    Yup. They also laughed at the more than 300 failed American car companies that have come and gone in the last 100 years.

  • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

    As you peruse this list, have fun realizing that the professionals have forgotten more than you think you know about cars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_automobile_manufacturers_of_the_United_States

    • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

      Preston Tucker. He built 50 Tucker Torpedos. From Wikipedia: “Tucker Accessories Program raised funds by selling accessories before the car was even in production. Potential buyers who purchased Tucker accessories were guaranteed a spot on the dealer waiting list for a Tucker ’48 car.”

      From Elio’s website: For $1000, “This is the ONLY level that locks you into a confirmed position on the non-refundable reservation list. You will receive a certificate that specifies and confirms your position by number.”

      Déjà vu.

      • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

        Good find!

      • Keith Cassinger

        This is getting pathetic. Hat’s going on between you two? I mean, Jo is just rude, younare kinda gay.

        • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

          Looks like Keith is stupid *AND* homophobic! Way to assume being gay is an insult you horrible s***bag. Now I REALLY want you to go away … and die in a fire. :)

  • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

    “your ford probably has a ford engine but it was built in a GM plant”

    Proof? Source? Links?

    “And I used to sell cars” – Do you belong to the SAE? No?

    List of defunct automobile manufacturers of the United States:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_automobile_manufacturers_of_the_United_States

    • Keith Cassinger

      See once again defending little Jo…wth is wrong with you? Younattracted to the guy or something? He can take care of himself Physics guy. LOL!

      • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

        Quite true, but harassing people like you with facts, reason, and industry know-how is one of the great, fun things about the internet. Feel free to go away now. No one wants you here. :: smooches ::

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      Don’t even try to respond to clowns like John B. By the time you’re far enough up your own ass to believe that Ford cars have GM engines and there are only “4 types of engine building companies” (which doesn’t even make sense as a sentence) he’s beyond reason. Just nod, politely, and ask him what flavor his window is. (Hint: it’s snozzberries!)

  • bonzo

    Time will tell all on all..We ALL shall see…..

  • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

    If they went to market today, it would be $7300 and get “only” 81 MPG, per Elio.

    • kldcoombs

      Wish he would – I would pay $500 more and live with ‘only’ 81 MPG if they would release it today.

  • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

    ” when you read the fine print, it says there is really is no promise you will ever get one”

    The Yugo: “People are just buying it from a picture in a brochure. (As with most things bought from a brochure, it was a bit too good to be true, but more on that in a moment.)”

    http://www.slate.com/articles/life/transport/2010/01/was_the_yugo_really_the_worst_car_ever.html

    • Keith Cassinger

      If the elio comes out and is even halfway successful…I am coming back here and making you eat crow.

      • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

        There is no trike, and never will be a trike. It’s vaporware at best, and a scam at worst. Every trike on display does not have an engine. The engine on display next to the trike, is a plastic mock-up. All videos of an Elio under its own power have been released by Elio; there aren’t any videos of an independent driver, released by a disinterested party. If you disagree, provide a link showing an independent driver.

        Elio is up against Bombardier and Polaris. The least expensive Can Am is $15K with a Rotax engine. A Slingshot starts at $20K, with a Chevy Volt engine. A Morgan 3 wheeler is ~$45K.

        Elio cannot raise the $750M to lease the plant in Louisiana. He’s asked Caddo Parrish to pay that; they’re not going to. Elon Musk has said a state has to give $500M to get the battery plant. They’re fools if they do.

        If you’re going to respond, do so without insults.

        • Bill Sinn

          No engine eh? Thats interesting seeing as I watched one pull up to the curb on the Today show, watched Matt Lauer get in one and drive away. I guess he’s in on the scam too and was using Fred Flintstone power? You make some good points but there isn’t any need to….embellish.. (or outright lie) when your position is as solid as you think it is.

          • http://newyorkleftist.blogspot.com misha_trotsky

            I looked. The engine is salvaged from a Chevy-Geo Metro.

            Elio is attempting to build their own engines, because they do not have the capital to buy engines from Rotax, like Polaris or Bombardier.

            Lauer is not an investigative reporter; he is an entertainer. He has his segment to fill.

            Elio needs $750M to lease the GM plant. They can’t raise it, and have asked Caddo Parish to subsidize it; they’re fools if they do.

  • bonzo

    Time will answer everyone questions.

  • Brian

    I am a numbers guy but also a hands on the factory floor guy. Numbers in a spread sheet are guide lines.. Spreadsheet says they might need 5 people. In reality they can have 3 people selling 6 cars a day easy. Easy to say $100 per sale to employee and $100/sale to OH . I think that would fly. And they will have 2 people one shift selling until they get full sales rolling.

  • Ted

    This is not a car; this is a motorcycle that will probably require neither a helmet nor motorcycle endorsement, wears only one (motorcycle) license plate and, most importantly, is HOV lane-compliant. The latter is what sold me on the vehicle (and the $1,500 off later for a down payment of $1,000 now). If I lose it…it’s merely a bad hour in the stock market.

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      Why do you believe it won’t require an endorsement? Even Elio’s people are saying that’s a very likely scenario.

  • 20yearVet

    I just wanted to say, I didn’t read the article… I went right to the comments and between Jo Borras and misha_trotsky’s comments, I can honestly say that these two are full of it and I have discredited the article entirely. It is your type of thinking that stifles innovation. Of course they will fail if everyone thinks like you two. I found you two spending all your time just defending the article as if you had an All-Seeing-Eye and everyone who didn’t think like you were just idiots, waiting to be proved to be idiots. Instead, try and pull you heads out of each other’s butts and listen to other people’s opinions. You might learn something.

    If my $1000 (non-refundable) deposit gives this company a chance to succeed then I am “ALL IN”. This type of FREE THINKING, ingenuity and innovation is exactly what this country use to be known for (and maybe will be again). It gives me pride when they say it will be “American made”. Everything else is bonus

    You two might be smarter than everyone else at the trivial stuff that you choose to waste your time on but I think most americans who read this article will see right though it. I have faith that this country has more decent open minded people than arrogant Know-It-Alls and this company will have a chance to succeed. Then guys like you two will eat your words. But I know the truth is, somehow, you will find some other way to prove that “You were right”.

    Cheers,

    • http://www.insteading.com/ Jo Borras

      You’re a clown, but at least you’re the kind of nimwit clown who admits to making decisions before reading anything critically. Now, let’s hope you never, ever vote in any election of consequence.

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