Chinese EVs: Quite Dirty After All

Not too long ago I wrote about China’s deployment of over 1,000 EV garbage trucks to the streets of Beijing. On the surface it sounded like a good move, but I wondered aloud just how “green” those EVs would be in light of China’s coal habit—it’s no secret, after all, that China chain-smokes coal . Cough.

Well, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we have a verdict: the consulting firm Gruetter Consulting, which is helping guide green energy projects all over the world, has crunched the numbers and concluded that Chinese EVs emit more CO2 than their gasoline counterparts when you consider the source of an EV’s juice.

D’Oh! Nice try, commies. China relies on coal to meet the overwhelming majority of their electrical needs, but like cigarettes (and prostitutes) coal is diiiiirty. Everyone knows that coal emissions pump vast concentrations of CO2 into the atmosphere; not everyone knows that coal emissions kill hundreds of thousands each year—especially in China—at a rate of 4,000 deaths for every death caused by nuclear power. Additionally, coal may actually be more radioactive than nuclear. (For further, less biased discussion on the merits/drawbacks of coal vs. nuclear, go here).

Humanity peruses coal (and cigarettes, and prostitutes) because it’s around and available. Coal is much cheaper to get up and running than nuclear, making it the go-to energy source for developing nations. Unfortunately, if you’re hooked the way China is, running a device as seemingly benign as an electric scooter would produce 20 g/km more CO2 than a gasoline scooter. Cough.

The good news from Gruetter? Not all developing nations are as dirty as China. An electric scooter initiative underway in India aims to replace up to 1.5 million gasoline-powered scooters with electric ones over a ten year period, a move which is projected to keep 1.5 million tons of CO2 out of the atmosphere.

Despite the conclusion on China, the findings are great news for EV proponents. If a developing country like India can come out ahead in carbon emissions by going electric, imagine how much better developed countries like France or Denmark— which get so much of their power from nuclear and wind, respectively—can do.

Source: AllCarsElectric Image Source: madiko83

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Tags: China, CO2, coal, Denmark, electric, Emissions, EVs, france, Gruetter Consulting, India, nuclear, Scooter

About the Author

Tyler Massie

http://Web Ferenc Mantfeld

Good article, but you might want to try a slight more professional stance. I am not Chinese nor do I have any Chinese relations, but ‘commies’ and ‘prostitutes’? Really? Not very mature or professional.
- http://importantmedia.org/members/joborras/ Jo Borras
  
  I don’t think the “prostitutes” reference referred to anyone Chinese. It seemed more like a “things that are dirty” reference.
  
  As for the “commies” comment, China has been a “people’s republic” since 1949, making the statement at least factually accurate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_China). Would you have preferred “nice try, communists”?
  - Tyler Massie
    
    Thanks, Jo. Right on.
    
    In hindsight, I can certainly see where “commies” and “prostitutes” may have been unnecessary at best.
    
    It’s really a very blurry, subjective line between having some fun with your writing and being unprofessional.
    - http://Web Mo
      
      It’s actually not that blurry. I am sure that upon rereading you can see that. This kind of information is important to my work. So I was intrigued by the headline and hope to glean some interesting facts, along with information about where they came from.
      This is contrary to other stories that say despite coal power, compared cradle to grave, electric is better.
      What makes this study different?
      Your immature attitude in your writing was a big turnoff. I am disappointed.
      - http://Web Bob
        
        I think Tyler was right on with his comments. I’ve lived in China and have lived in Asia for many years. Way to go Tyler!!
  - http://Web johnny_balls
    
    But why refer to them in that manner which is derogatory in nature. You know that.
- http://Web Ziv
  
  The ‘prostitutes’ being dirty like cigs and coal was a poor choice of words, but it isn’t like this is a professional publication. And the use of ‘commies’ was kind of funny, I don’t think anyone has a word to describe what the blended form of govt China has moved to is, but officially they are still ‘communist’.
  But more importantly, they do use a lot of coal, so much so that you can feel the coal grit in the air when the wind blows in Beijing. It is a filthy country when it comes to pollution. Outside of Kunming there aren’t a lot of places in the south and east that aren’t the victims of incredible levels of pollutants.
  EVEN SO, electric garbage trucks are still going to emit less using coal generated elec than if they were using the old diesels the rest of the trucks use.
- http://Web DaveD
  
  Geez guys, lighten up. He was making a joke and it did not say anything about Chinese all being prostitutes anymore than he was saying they are the only people who smoke cigarettes.
  
  Besides, if you’ve ever been over there, they are like any place where humans exist…they have an abundance of both.
  
  Lighten up and enjoy the sunshine or hug your kid…or something.
http://Web Nixon

The good thing about EV’s is that you can change how much emissions they emit through the “long tailpipe” by changing how you generate electricity.

China is working on solar and wind too, so not all is hopeless.

As for the deaths, moving emissions away from city centers from dirty gasser tailpipes is worth the switch to EV’s alone. Moving emissions to taller stacks away from population centers instead of tailpipes right at body level will reduce deaths.

Even if China has plenty of other challenges elsewhere, this is a move in the right direction that just needs follow-up. The switch off of oil and coal as our overwhelming sources of energy to renewables isn’t going to happen overnight. These type of evolutions have taken roughly 20-40 years in the past. This one will take a while too, and it will take a while to get all the pieces in place. But starting somewhere is better than starting nowhere.
- http://Web Bob
  
  You are sooo right in that we have to start somewhere but the air is so unbelievably dirty coming out of China………..You can actually see the polluted air on some satellite pics flowing Eastward and covering Western Taiwan. Taller smoke stacks won’t help those poor folks downstream and then there’s the acid rain. It’s unlikely China cares much about it either once it leaves their shores. My bet is that China will not change to cleaner fuel until all the coal is gone. And they’ve got plenty of it. A lot more than 40 years worth. I’m glad you didn’t mention nuclear though. Solar and wind power sound good but the incentives are greatly lacking for China to really go to those due to their reserves of coal. They will probably go to nuclear next. IMHO, of course. Hydro is probably out for awhile, at least until the inferior concrete of the big dam is fixed.
http://Web Joan

Seriously unprofessional. Not reading this blog anymore.
- http://www.sublimeburnout.com Christopher DeMorro
  
  @ Joan
  
  And when did any of us claim to be professionals?
  - http://Web johnny_balls
    
    You’re right your not.
- http://gas2.org Jo Borras
  
  Just curious if “commies” or “prostitutes” was what pushed you over the edge. For what it’s worth, anyone insulted by “commies” probably takes themselves (and their political leanings) a bit too seriously.
  - http://Web Nixon
    
    I don’t like the tone and wording either. Not because I’m hyper-serious, but because it makes the entire story un-linkable. I can’t point anyone towards this story with this sort of rhetoric in it.
    
    The story contains valid information that is diminished by the rhetorical devices used, undermining it’s authority.
    
    I’m sure you don’t like negative critiques of your work any more than the next guy, especially when you had a well-meaning intent of trying to keep things light-hearted and jovial — which is a serious challenge with material talking about people dying from emissions. But don’t take it too personal, just roll with it and keep putting out good posts (minus this sort of intentionally sharp rhetoric).
    - http://Web DaveD
      
      Nixon,
      
      Jon Stewart is now “the most trusted name in News” according to most polls. And he says worse stuff than this in every story he does!
      
      And you’ve been around ABG long enough to see a lot worse than this. LOL
      - http://Web Nixon
        
        If I wanted to provide information to others about green issues (or any issue), I wouldn’t link to Jon Stewart either. He isn’t an authoritative source that you can link to when you want to make a serious point.
        
        I’ve seen worse here, and 10 times worse on sites like ABG. But that doesn’t mean I can’t add constructive criticism for a site I like, and writers that I like.
  - http://Web johnny_balls
    
    Commies was a poor choice of words and just so unnecessary. It reeked of USA …USA.. USA..USA..
    - http://www.sublimeburnout.com Christopher DeMorro
      
      @ Johnny_Balls
      
      Since when is Commies derogatory? Did I miss a memo? Last time I checked, China was quite proud of being a closed communist society. I haven’t seen any Chinese citizens up in arms over the slang.
      
      We’re very “USA! USA! USA!” here at Gas 2.0. If you have a problem with that, there are a number of other green blogs who will be happy to bash America on a regular basis. That doesn’t mean we give US companies a free pass, far from it…but this blog will never apologize for being pro-America. And if you got our overwhelming patriotism from the use of the word “commies” well by God, I might just include it in every post I right about from now on. Commie.
      - http://Web johnny_balls
        
        No one is talking about bashing the usa , nice strawman.
        
        Someone is asking you to apologize?? I must of missed that one.
        
        Believe me there is nothing to be patriotic about in the u.s. these days but if you feel the need to fill your jingoistic desires then go for it.
        
        What is exactly pro-america??
      - http://www.sublimeburnout.com Christopher DeMorro
        
        @ johnny_balls
        
        Your response made it seem as though chanting USA! is a bad thing, and far too often I read green blogs where the writers will take any chance they can get to bash America, especially American cars. It is very frustrating at times to be both green, and a fan of American cars, as far too many people see the two as mutually exclusive. So perhaps I am overly sensitive to the whole thing. But these days America has enough critics; it could use a few cheerleaders, and I’ll not apologize, ever, for my patriotism.
        
        This is my final word on the topic of derogatory words.
        
        I stand by Tyler and his use of the whole “commie” slang. If it bothers anyone that much, they are free not to read Tyler’s posts, or Gas 2.0 at all. I think for the most part, Gas 2.0 is a family friendly blog, and while almost ANY word, used in a certain context, can be considered derogatory, we’re just not going to march along with the Political Correctness crowd. That’s not to say we’re going to start filling our posts with expletive-laced rants against any one person or group of people, but we’re also not going to bow to the whims of a vocal few who want this word or that not used because it is “derogatory.” If China has a problem with the use of commies, let them complain about it.
      - http://gas2.org Jo Borras
        
        Well said. “USA! USA! USA!” and proud. Hardly a straw man.
- http://Web Bob
  
  Don’t let the door hit you in the Behind on your way out.
http://Web hugo

I agree with the idea that this article was not very well written. I don’t like the style or the tone, but, I guess, that can be considered a personal opinion, ans as such, has the value that it has… Still there is a piece of information that, to me, it seems, at least, a bit confusing: “Unfortunately, if you’re hooked the way China is, running a device as seemingly benign as an electric scooter would produce 20 kg/km more CO2 than a gasoline scooter.”
Is that correct?? 20 Kg for each kilometer?? It’s very hard to believe … Honestly I would say that there’s no way that’s possible…
- http://www.sublimeburnout.com Christopher DeMorro
  
  @ hugo
  
  You are correct. It is NOT 20 kg/km more, but 20 g/km more. Huge difference, and the article has been corrected to reflect that. Thanks for the catch.
http://Web DaveD

Interesting. It’s possible that China’s mix of coal plants is so old, and unregulated that it could produce more CO2 than gas engines.

HOWEVER, I’d like to see their report firsthand and read their assumptions before I take it at face value. For example, did they include the full life cycle of the gasoline or did they just do the tail pipe emissions? It takes 3.5 kWh even for Exxon’s “Energy Star Compliant” refinery in Baton Rouge to refine a gallon of gasoline…and that is considered to be the best in the world. Who knows what a Chinese refinery would use…and that totally ignores the natural gas burned in refining the gasoline and the other chemicals used at the refinery.

Again, I’m certainly not a coal proponent and think it is probably worse than petroleum even if the CO2 story is not accurate because of the mercury, etc that also comes from coal and as you point out, it may be more radioactive than nukes!

But I always like to know the assumptions before I believe any report’s conclusions.

Do you have a link to the report and more importantly…is it free?
http://Web Bob

“………concluded that Chinese EVs emit more CO2 than their gasoline counterparts when you consider the source of an EV’s juice.”

Doesn’t 69% of the electrical energy in the U.S. come from coal? Some percentage is nuclear. I know a small amount is hydroelectric and some comes from solar, some from wind, only about 1% from petroleum. Geothermal is supposed to be one of the best sources of electrical energy but will be very expensive to get it operating on a large scale. Once geothermal is up and running nationwide we’ll have unlimited cheap power. Until then we will probably argue a lot.

Projections are that just 20% of our electrical energy by 2025 will be from clean sources. And if we have a great increase in the use of electric vehicles by 2025, as many are hoping, then won’t we be putting out more pollution than we are now?

Perhaps it would be wise of us to not put all of our eggs in one basket. We now have clean diesels and the NOx compounds are being brought under control. There are renewable clean sources for diesel fuel now. The automobile industry has had the ability for many years to build normal cars and small to medium sized trucks, similar to those everyone drives today, that can get 50+ ACTUAL miles per gallon. It would be nice if they could stow the hype and bring some of these to the showroom floor with a reasonable price tag.
- http://Web DaveD
  
  Here in the US, coal now only accounts for 45% of electricity generation and that number is dropping fast as Natural Gas is growing quickly:
  
  http://www.eia.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table1_1.html
  - http://Web Bob
    
    That’s a pretty handy chart.
    
    This is worrisome: “Notes: Beginning with 2001 data, non-biogenic municipal solid waste and tire-derived fuels are reclassified as non-renewable energy sources and included in “Other”. Biogenic municipal solid waste is included in “Other Renewables.” Beginning with the collection of Form EIA-923 in January 2008, the methodology for separating the fuel used for electricity generation and useful thermal output from combined heat and power plants changed, and at plants that utilize multiple fuels, may have resulted in a reallocation of the total plant generation accross those fuels. The new methodology was retroacitvely applied to 2004-2007. See the Technical Notes (Appendix C) for further information. • See Glossary for definitions. • Values for 2009 and prior years are final. Values for 2010 and 2011 are preliminary.”
    
    It always hurts the results when the computations are changed for just some of the data.
    
    Also in category 5 some of the fuels appear to be derived from coal, yet aren’t counted as coal sources. Tire derived fuels and batteries for instance. I don’t think the amount would make that much difference in the calculations though.
    
    Thanks for the reference.
    
    Here is another chart that’s easy on the eyes and it seems to agree with your chart: http://mapawatt.com/2010/11/29/where-does-u-s-electricity-come-from/
    
    Things seem to be changing rather rapidly in this area.
    - http://Web DaveD
      
      Great link Bob. It is much easier on the eyes, as you say.
      
      But it was nice to have the raw numbers from the other link as well where it shows the trends. For example, for the last month they have data, April 2011, it appears that Coal is down to 41%. I would bet that NG may overtake coal within 18-24 months as they also shut down a few of the older, dirtier coal plants and continue to grow NG use.
http://www.d1ev.com Echo

I don’t like your tone neither.But i think the blame is a good thing for China.Thank you all the same.