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	<title>Comments on: Audi Chief Calls Chevy Volt &quot;A Car For Idiots&quot;</title>
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	<link>http://gas2.org/2009/09/03/audi-chief-calls-chevy-volt-a-car-for-idiots/</link>
	<description>What is the future of fuel?  What&#039;s new?  What&#039;s next?  Since 2007, Gas 2 has covered a rapidly changing world coming to terms with its oil addiction.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 21:57:52 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: nifongnation</title>
		<link>http://gas2.org/2009/09/03/audi-chief-calls-chevy-volt-a-car-for-idiots/#comment-132290</link>
		<dc:creator>nifongnation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2012 20:20:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gas2.org/?p=3383#comment-132290</guid>
		<description>Electric cars would be more attractive if they ran on petroleum fuel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Electric cars would be more attractive if they ran on petroleum fuel.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://gas2.org/2009/09/03/audi-chief-calls-chevy-volt-a-car-for-idiots/#comment-132289</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:54:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gas2.org/?p=3383#comment-132289</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s our money actually.  The overall subsidy for the volt shifts most of the cost to all taxpayers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s our money actually.  The overall subsidy for the volt shifts most of the cost to all taxpayers.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://gas2.org/2009/09/03/audi-chief-calls-chevy-volt-a-car-for-idiots/#comment-132287</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gas2.org/?p=3383#comment-132287</guid>
		<description>You are right about one thing Ben, EV&#039;s are the future.  The very, very distant future.  

You talk about charging your car during off-peak hours.  Most of the generating capacity in this country is coal fueled, and those plants take time to make any changes in output based on demand.  Peak demand generation is typically done by other types of energy generation plants that are relatively quick to start up or ramp up output in a matter of minutes and not hours, natural gas and nuclear are two that are common.   The trouble is &quot;peak&quot; power costs more to produce.  Most of the time the energy companies and traders don&#039;t make you pay more for electricity based on peak usage but simply a flat rate that is supposed to take into account the overall cost of providing the energy.  If so-called peak usage changes, or we eliminate peak usage because we are running our air conditioning all day and charging our cars all night, then it would require more long term investment in energy production and delivery as demand has simply increased during off-peak hours to where now it&#039;s more of a flat usage band across the day, just for different reasons at difference times.

And you are right about the tax structure changing along with it.  So essentially what will happen is we will all pay some form of energy tax that covers the cost of developing new sources of generating capacity, as well as road-use or milage or wheel taxes or simply much of the nations roadways being converted to toll roads to cover the cost of maintaining the road infrastructure.   This idea had already been put on the table two years ago in Seattle where officials worried about the sudden influx of high-milage hybrids and other compact cars was going to cause a reduction in fuel taxes and could ultimately impact the governments ability to maintain the roads.  Ideas such as a mileage meter that would transmit you usage data to receivers either along or under the roadway and you would get a monthly bill to pay for the amount of miles you used.   I found this whole thing ironic because one branch of the government was going to subsidize green cars and another was going to penalize you for them.  Another unintended consequense will be a rise in the cost of paying your residential energy bill.  This could have dire consequences for many families living at or below the poverty level, or require yet another government subsidy so that those so effected can keep the lights and heat on in the winter.  

No one has yet mentioned that because the hybrid or electric cars generally are smaller and weigh less, they would actually cause less wear and tear on the roadways than existing gas-guzzlers.   Also on that note, an over the road semi causes 200 times more damage to the road than a typical family car.  The logic would be to further up the taxes on large trucks, but that won&#039;t happen because the trucking companies, teamsters unions and all retailers would scream from every mountaintop about putting people out of work and pricing consumer goods out of reach.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.  Everything has to be paid for, and everything has it&#039;s negative consquences. 

So the problems are not just technical,  They are political and economic as well.  As I said, electric cars may be the future, but I wouldn&#039;t count on it anytime soon.   If they really are a better idea, the market economy free from government meddling should prove that out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are right about one thing Ben, EV&#8217;s are the future.  The very, very distant future.  </p>
<p>You talk about charging your car during off-peak hours.  Most of the generating capacity in this country is coal fueled, and those plants take time to make any changes in output based on demand.  Peak demand generation is typically done by other types of energy generation plants that are relatively quick to start up or ramp up output in a matter of minutes and not hours, natural gas and nuclear are two that are common.   The trouble is &#8220;peak&#8221; power costs more to produce.  Most of the time the energy companies and traders don&#8217;t make you pay more for electricity based on peak usage but simply a flat rate that is supposed to take into account the overall cost of providing the energy.  If so-called peak usage changes, or we eliminate peak usage because we are running our air conditioning all day and charging our cars all night, then it would require more long term investment in energy production and delivery as demand has simply increased during off-peak hours to where now it&#8217;s more of a flat usage band across the day, just for different reasons at difference times.</p>
<p>And you are right about the tax structure changing along with it.  So essentially what will happen is we will all pay some form of energy tax that covers the cost of developing new sources of generating capacity, as well as road-use or milage or wheel taxes or simply much of the nations roadways being converted to toll roads to cover the cost of maintaining the road infrastructure.   This idea had already been put on the table two years ago in Seattle where officials worried about the sudden influx of high-milage hybrids and other compact cars was going to cause a reduction in fuel taxes and could ultimately impact the governments ability to maintain the roads.  Ideas such as a mileage meter that would transmit you usage data to receivers either along or under the roadway and you would get a monthly bill to pay for the amount of miles you used.   I found this whole thing ironic because one branch of the government was going to subsidize green cars and another was going to penalize you for them.  Another unintended consequense will be a rise in the cost of paying your residential energy bill.  This could have dire consequences for many families living at or below the poverty level, or require yet another government subsidy so that those so effected can keep the lights and heat on in the winter.  </p>
<p>No one has yet mentioned that because the hybrid or electric cars generally are smaller and weigh less, they would actually cause less wear and tear on the roadways than existing gas-guzzlers.   Also on that note, an over the road semi causes 200 times more damage to the road than a typical family car.  The logic would be to further up the taxes on large trucks, but that won&#8217;t happen because the trucking companies, teamsters unions and all retailers would scream from every mountaintop about putting people out of work and pricing consumer goods out of reach.</p>
<p>There is no such thing as a free lunch.  Everything has to be paid for, and everything has it&#8217;s negative consquences. </p>
<p>So the problems are not just technical,  They are political and economic as well.  As I said, electric cars may be the future, but I wouldn&#8217;t count on it anytime soon.   If they really are a better idea, the market economy free from government meddling should prove that out.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://gas2.org/2009/09/03/audi-chief-calls-chevy-volt-a-car-for-idiots/#comment-132283</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2012 19:16:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gas2.org/?p=3383#comment-132283</guid>
		<description>Good point</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://gas2.org/2009/09/03/audi-chief-calls-chevy-volt-a-car-for-idiots/#comment-132282</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2012 18:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gas2.org/?p=3383#comment-132282</guid>
		<description>Chad  you seem to be drinking the same coolaid as the global warming crowd.  Every energy source has it&#039;s cost, sometimes it&#039;s financial, sometimes it&#039;s an undesirable side effect or byproduct.  Biodiesel cannot be produced economically on the scale that would be needed to support a fundamental shift in energy sources.   I mean you can run a jet engine on coal dust or wheat dust with some mods to the fuel delivery system, but it&#039;s not an efficient (not yet anyway) way to run a gas turbine.   How much energy does it take to create biodiesel?  Ethanol is a joke because it costs more in energy to produce than it delivers.  And ethanol also gives us the added bonus of driving up food costs because now the demand for corn is going up, AND we are destroying more of the brazilian rain forest so that farmers there can grow the soybeans American farmers stopped growing because corn turns a  higher profit.   Just like the original point in the article above, none of this is really viable without a government subsidy.  When electric cars, and hybrids, and biodiesel and ethanol, etc., can all survive in a competitive marketplace without a subsidy, then it&#039;s time to take a serious look at it, but until then this is all just applied research, and another opportunity for the leftists politicians of the world (such as Al Gore among many others) to use a feel-good catch phrase to fund and support their own private agendas.   And one last thing, don&#039;t throw some wild statement out there and try and justify it with a simple &quot;look it up&quot;.  You look it up and then give us a link or reference a specific analysis or study from a credible source.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chad  you seem to be drinking the same coolaid as the global warming crowd.  Every energy source has it&#8217;s cost, sometimes it&#8217;s financial, sometimes it&#8217;s an undesirable side effect or byproduct.  Biodiesel cannot be produced economically on the scale that would be needed to support a fundamental shift in energy sources.   I mean you can run a jet engine on coal dust or wheat dust with some mods to the fuel delivery system, but it&#8217;s not an efficient (not yet anyway) way to run a gas turbine.   How much energy does it take to create biodiesel?  Ethanol is a joke because it costs more in energy to produce than it delivers.  And ethanol also gives us the added bonus of driving up food costs because now the demand for corn is going up, AND we are destroying more of the brazilian rain forest so that farmers there can grow the soybeans American farmers stopped growing because corn turns a  higher profit.   Just like the original point in the article above, none of this is really viable without a government subsidy.  When electric cars, and hybrids, and biodiesel and ethanol, etc., can all survive in a competitive marketplace without a subsidy, then it&#8217;s time to take a serious look at it, but until then this is all just applied research, and another opportunity for the leftists politicians of the world (such as Al Gore among many others) to use a feel-good catch phrase to fund and support their own private agendas.   And one last thing, don&#8217;t throw some wild statement out there and try and justify it with a simple &#8220;look it up&#8221;.  You look it up and then give us a link or reference a specific analysis or study from a credible source.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://gas2.org/2009/09/03/audi-chief-calls-chevy-volt-a-car-for-idiots/#comment-132271</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:25:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gas2.org/?p=3383#comment-132271</guid>
		<description>and incidentally, the reason kerosene is used in jet fuel is it has more energy by weight/volume than gasoline.  The same is true of diesel.  That&#039;s what makes it more efficient is that it takes less fuel to create the same amount of energy compared to a gasoline engine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and incidentally, the reason kerosene is used in jet fuel is it has more energy by weight/volume than gasoline.  The same is true of diesel.  That&#8217;s what makes it more efficient is that it takes less fuel to create the same amount of energy compared to a gasoline engine.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://gas2.org/2009/09/03/audi-chief-calls-chevy-volt-a-car-for-idiots/#comment-132270</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2012 16:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gas2.org/?p=3383#comment-132270</guid>
		<description>Paul I think your numbers are upside down.  In the fractioning process the highest yield is from the least refined elements of the process.  Most of the barrel ends up on the bottom end of the scale, ie asphalt, tar, and works it&#039;s way up through fuel oil, kerosene (jet fuel) diesel and finally gasoline and high octane fuels used for racing or aircraft applications.  The yield of gasoline is only about 4.5 gallons per barrel in a typical refining process.  Modern technology has allowed refineries to modify the refining process to squeeze more fuel out than 20 years ago, but still the yield of gasoline is a relatively small percentage.  Diesel yield is naturally higher just by the nature of the fractioning process, so you wouldn&#039;t need to fiddle with it much at all to create even more diesel at a lower cost than gasoline.   The only problem is getting the auto-maker/oil company mafia to allow it to happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul I think your numbers are upside down.  In the fractioning process the highest yield is from the least refined elements of the process.  Most of the barrel ends up on the bottom end of the scale, ie asphalt, tar, and works it&#8217;s way up through fuel oil, kerosene (jet fuel) diesel and finally gasoline and high octane fuels used for racing or aircraft applications.  The yield of gasoline is only about 4.5 gallons per barrel in a typical refining process.  Modern technology has allowed refineries to modify the refining process to squeeze more fuel out than 20 years ago, but still the yield of gasoline is a relatively small percentage.  Diesel yield is naturally higher just by the nature of the fractioning process, so you wouldn&#8217;t need to fiddle with it much at all to create even more diesel at a lower cost than gasoline.   The only problem is getting the auto-maker/oil company mafia to allow it to happen.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://gas2.org/2009/09/03/audi-chief-calls-chevy-volt-a-car-for-idiots/#comment-132267</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2012 15:12:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gas2.org/?p=3383#comment-132267</guid>
		<description>The problem with your comments is that one, the market is NOT free to decide if the Volt is going to ever become economically viable.  It is subsidized both in manufacturing as well as post sale ($7500 per year tax break), so that the total cost per car is estimated at over $200,000, the vast majority of which is shouldered by the other taxpayers, not the person driving the car.  
I&#039;m not quite sure what you  mean by wasting tax money on trains and mass transit.  Mass transit gives virtually all of the benefits of private individuals driving electric cars or hybrids, but the positive impact on the environment is astronomical.   Every car that doesn&#039;t get built accounts for less toxic waste from the plastics, paints, fabrics, tires, batteries that go into each and every one of them.  Then consider the costs, both financial and environmental, of the lifetime of using that car and finally disposing of it when it reaches end of it&#039;s service life.  Train ridership in markets like Chicago accounts for millions of miles not driven by privately owned vehicles and the associated fuel use and emissions that would come from their use.  Trains, either for moving freight or people, is by far the most economical way of moving large quantities of anything.  Over the road trucking is very expensive and inefficient by comparison.
Another form of economy that no one is talking about is that diesel is more efficient to produce than gasoline.  If you take the output from a typical fractioning tower used to refine raw petroleum, a large percentage of that barrel of oil stays close to the bottom, and becomes asphalt, tar, etc.  As you move up the tower you get various fuels but in reducing quantities, starting with fuel oil and kerosene (also used in jet fuel), to diesel then finally gasoline of varying octane ratings.  If I remember correctly, only about 4.5 gallons of gasoline come from one barrel of oil (it&#039;s been a while since I took Energy Markets while working on my masters, so forgive me if my data is old).  Anyway, the main point is that the pro-diesel crowd here has the right answer for right now.  Diesel engines are the most efficient option we have when you consider fuel cost, emissions (which on a diesel are less toxic and polluting than gasoline), economy of scale in manufacturing facilities that are already set up to build them, the cost of rare earth metals required for electric cars, t he lack of infrastructure needed to support the EV&#039;s, etc., it&#039;s pretty clear that the theoretical efficiencies of an electric or hybrid car can&#039;t stack up against the current economical realities that the average driver faces.

I agree with you that the market, not the government should decide what light bulbs we use and what cars we drive, and what source is used to provide electricity to our homes.  But the Chevy volt is clearly NOT an example of that happening.  It&#039;s the worst kind of government meddling in that it is entirely agenda driven and has nothing to do with whats fair, right, or smart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with your comments is that one, the market is NOT free to decide if the Volt is going to ever become economically viable.  It is subsidized both in manufacturing as well as post sale ($7500 per year tax break), so that the total cost per car is estimated at over $200,000, the vast majority of which is shouldered by the other taxpayers, not the person driving the car.<br />
I&#8217;m not quite sure what you  mean by wasting tax money on trains and mass transit.  Mass transit gives virtually all of the benefits of private individuals driving electric cars or hybrids, but the positive impact on the environment is astronomical.   Every car that doesn&#8217;t get built accounts for less toxic waste from the plastics, paints, fabrics, tires, batteries that go into each and every one of them.  Then consider the costs, both financial and environmental, of the lifetime of using that car and finally disposing of it when it reaches end of it&#8217;s service life.  Train ridership in markets like Chicago accounts for millions of miles not driven by privately owned vehicles and the associated fuel use and emissions that would come from their use.  Trains, either for moving freight or people, is by far the most economical way of moving large quantities of anything.  Over the road trucking is very expensive and inefficient by comparison.<br />
Another form of economy that no one is talking about is that diesel is more efficient to produce than gasoline.  If you take the output from a typical fractioning tower used to refine raw petroleum, a large percentage of that barrel of oil stays close to the bottom, and becomes asphalt, tar, etc.  As you move up the tower you get various fuels but in reducing quantities, starting with fuel oil and kerosene (also used in jet fuel), to diesel then finally gasoline of varying octane ratings.  If I remember correctly, only about 4.5 gallons of gasoline come from one barrel of oil (it&#8217;s been a while since I took Energy Markets while working on my masters, so forgive me if my data is old).  Anyway, the main point is that the pro-diesel crowd here has the right answer for right now.  Diesel engines are the most efficient option we have when you consider fuel cost, emissions (which on a diesel are less toxic and polluting than gasoline), economy of scale in manufacturing facilities that are already set up to build them, the cost of rare earth metals required for electric cars, t he lack of infrastructure needed to support the EV&#8217;s, etc., it&#8217;s pretty clear that the theoretical efficiencies of an electric or hybrid car can&#8217;t stack up against the current economical realities that the average driver faces.</p>
<p>I agree with you that the market, not the government should decide what light bulbs we use and what cars we drive, and what source is used to provide electricity to our homes.  But the Chevy volt is clearly NOT an example of that happening.  It&#8217;s the worst kind of government meddling in that it is entirely agenda driven and has nothing to do with whats fair, right, or smart.</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://gas2.org/2009/09/03/audi-chief-calls-chevy-volt-a-car-for-idiots/#comment-132213</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gas2.org/?p=3383#comment-132213</guid>
		<description>Electric cars would be more attractive if it has onboard thermoelectric generator.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Electric cars would be more attractive if it has onboard thermoelectric generator.</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://gas2.org/2009/09/03/audi-chief-calls-chevy-volt-a-car-for-idiots/#comment-132212</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gas2.org/?p=3383#comment-132212</guid>
		<description>Electric cars would be more attractive if it has onboard thermoelectric generator. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqnk19hn7Rc</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Electric cars would be more attractive if it has onboard thermoelectric generator. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqnk19hn7Rc" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uqnk19hn7Rc</a></p>
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