My comment about hybrids being a band-aid refers to the fact that yes, while they double our gas mileage…they still use gas.

As for the rest of the comments, good discussion, I learned some things and my fears are alleviated…a little bit.

My comment about hybrids being a band-aid refers to the fact that yes, while they double our gas mileage…they still use gas.

As for the rest of the comments, good discussion, I learned some things and my fears are alleviated…a little bit.

“Disclaimer; I am no fan of hybrid cars. It feels more like a band-aid for a much bigger problem.”

In essence, hybrid cars are just highly efficient cars that use batteries to store breaking energy and an electric motor to assist a gas sipping motor with torque when needed. What’s not to like about the first ever major leap in car efficiency? My God, they more than double our average fuel mileage.

Could you elaborate on what you mean about efficiency being a bandaid for some bigger problem?

Another point missed in the comments is that lithium is recyclable. You don’t burn it up like you do a fuel. I’ve been riding a hybrid electric bike since 2005 using lithium batteries and they are still like new. They will also get recycled some day.

I’m guessing that your reference to being burned on the internet was in reference to the biofuel debacle.

The commenter above is also correct. Other battery chemistries are coming on line. Batteries are not new. Every car made has about 70 pounds of highly toxic lead under the hood.

“Disclaimer; I am no fan of hybrid cars. It feels more like a band-aid for a much bigger problem.”

In essence, hybrid cars are just highly efficient cars that use batteries to store breaking energy and an electric motor to assist a gas sipping motor with torque when needed. What’s not to like about the first ever major leap in car efficiency? My God, they more than double our average fuel mileage.

Could you elaborate on what you mean about efficiency being a bandaid for some bigger problem?

Another point missed in the comments is that lithium is recyclable. You don’t burn it up like you do a fuel. I’ve been riding a hybrid electric bike since 2005 using lithium batteries and they are still like new. They will also get recycled some day.

I’m guessing that your reference to being burned on the internet was in reference to the biofuel debacle.

The commenter above is also correct. Other battery chemistries are coming on line. Batteries are not new. Every car made has about 70 pounds of highly toxic lead under the hood.

My laptop has six lithium ion batteries. The Tesla Roadster has 6,831 lithium batteries exactly the same size. That’s more than 1,000 times more lithium for the car than the laptop. A phone or iPod has a tiny battery even in comparison with a laptop.

A few years ago, I analysed the projected global demand for lithium battery material in fine detail for a major lithium material supplier, and I can assure you that demand for electric vehicles (by mass) quickly overtakes all other battery uses, because vehicle batteries are so large in comparison. Even then, batteries will still represent a minority of all lithium usage for the short-term future, as I pointed out earlier.

Incidentally, better batteries won’t help much. A typical lithium ion battery stores one electron per atom of lithium (or molecule of LiCoO2). A typical Li-ion battery is already about 60% efficient in this respect, so better batteries won’t use significantly less lithium, though they may be better in other ways.

If manufacturers stay with lithium chemistry for batteries, and there are good reasons why they would, then demand for lithium is clearly going to rise. This will probably increase the price, at which point currently uneconomic reserves will become viable. As we have an almost limitless source in seawater this is eventually where we may have turn. Material represents a small fraction of the cost of a battery (as David Martin has shown), so higher costs may be acceptable.

If the price of lithium becomes too high, then there are many other chemistries that will make a reasonable battery, e.g. nickel metal hydride (currently used in the Prius); lead-acid (as in every conventional vehicle today and quite effective for cheap e-bikes, particularly if developed further); and who knows what else. Engineers and economists will find the optimum cost-performance trade-off.

No battery can offer the energy density of a liquid chemical fuel, and none is likely to in the foreseeable future. Therefore, for those applications where energy density is essential, e.g. high duty cycle vehicles, agriculture, aircraft, shipping, we will need liquid chemical fuels, in the interim from petroleum, and subsequently sustainably produced, probably from plant or microbial sources.

My laptop has six lithium ion batteries. The Tesla Roadster has 6,831 lithium batteries exactly the same size. That’s more than 1,000 times more lithium for the car than the laptop. A phone or iPod has a tiny battery even in comparison with a laptop.

A few years ago, I analysed the projected global demand for lithium battery material in fine detail for a major lithium material supplier, and I can assure you that demand for electric vehicles (by mass) quickly overtakes all other battery uses, because vehicle batteries are so large in comparison. Even then, batteries will still represent a minority of all lithium usage for the short-term future, as I pointed out earlier.

Incidentally, better batteries won’t help much. A typical lithium ion battery stores one electron per atom of lithium (or molecule of LiCoO2). A typical Li-ion battery is already about 60% efficient in this respect, so better batteries won’t use significantly less lithium, though they may be better in other ways.

If manufacturers stay with lithium chemistry for batteries, and there are good reasons why they would, then demand for lithium is clearly going to rise. This will probably increase the price, at which point currently uneconomic reserves will become viable. As we have an almost limitless source in seawater this is eventually where we may have turn. Material represents a small fraction of the cost of a battery (as David Martin has shown), so higher costs may be acceptable.

If the price of lithium becomes too high, then there are many other chemistries that will make a reasonable battery, e.g. nickel metal hydride (currently used in the Prius); lead-acid (as in every conventional vehicle today and quite effective for cheap e-bikes, particularly if developed further); and who knows what else. Engineers and economists will find the optimum cost-performance trade-off.

No battery can offer the energy density of a liquid chemical fuel, and none is likely to in the foreseeable future. Therefore, for those applications where energy density is essential, e.g. high duty cycle vehicles, agriculture, aircraft, shipping, we will need liquid chemical fuels, in the interim from petroleum, and subsequently sustainably produced, probably from plant or microbial sources.

As I point out in my article, many products other than cars use lithium for batteries. While the amounts may be small, when there are several hundred million of them, it starts to add up.

Also, China and India are still largely rural countries where most people don’t own cars. What happens in twenty or thirty years when they are heavily industrialized and if only half of their populations have cars? That is a billion cars right there, and that is without figuring that the human race is rapidly reproducing.

It may not seem urgent now, but there is more to this than just the surface argument. What if those billion new drivers decide they all need laptops and iPods, which also use lithium-ion batteries?

As I point out in my article, many products other than cars use lithium for batteries. While the amounts may be small, when there are several hundred million of them, it starts to add up.

Also, China and India are still largely rural countries where most people don’t own cars. What happens in twenty or thirty years when they are heavily industrialized and if only half of their populations have cars? That is a billion cars right there, and that is without figuring that the human race is rapidly reproducing.

It may not seem urgent now, but there is more to this than just the surface argument. What if those billion new drivers decide they all need laptops and iPods, which also use lithium-ion batteries?

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/06/bebop-ze-20090629.html

According to Chemetall we have around 30 million tonnes of lithium, or 150million tonnes of lithium carbonate available:

http://www.chemetalllithium.com/index.php?id=7

Note that these things are calculated at current prices, so that is assuming $8kg.If the price goes up, supplies tend to go up.

So the 24kwh pack in the new Nissan Leaf will need around 24kg of lithium carbonate, or 4.8kg of lithium.

That works out to around $38.5 dollars for a $10,000battery pack.

The price could easily go up tenfold without having a major influence on pack price.

There is no reason why it would need to though, as for around $22-32kg you can get lithium from seawater:

http://gas2.org/2008/10/13/lithium-counterpoint-no-shortage-for-electric-cars/

Note that they use the slightly higher figure of 1.4kg lithium carbonate per kwh – battery chemistries vary a bit in how much lithium they use.

That would give us an effectively unlimited supply of lithium for our purposes.

However, lets restrict ourselves to the reserves at current prices of 150 million tonnes, and lets assume that we can’t get any from Bolivia and jso rule out 50% of reserves.

Let’s increase the kilowatt hours for a car from the Leaf’s 24 to 60.

It turns out then that we might be running a bit short after the first 1.8billion vehicles or so!

It hardly seems a very urgent problem.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/06/bebop-ze-20090629.html

According to Chemetall we have around 30 million tonnes of lithium, or 150million tonnes of lithium carbonate available:

http://www.chemetalllithium.com/index.php?id=7

Note that these things are calculated at current prices, so that is assuming $8kg.If the price goes up, supplies tend to go up.

So the 24kwh pack in the new Nissan Leaf will need around 24kg of lithium carbonate, or 4.8kg of lithium.

That works out to around $38.5 dollars for a $10,000battery pack.

The price could easily go up tenfold without having a major influence on pack price.

There is no reason why it would need to though, as for around $22-32kg you can get lithium from seawater:

http://gas2.org/2008/10/13/lithium-counterpoint-no-shortage-for-electric-cars/

Note that they use the slightly higher figure of 1.4kg lithium carbonate per kwh – battery chemistries vary a bit in how much lithium they use.

That would give us an effectively unlimited supply of lithium for our purposes.

However, lets restrict ourselves to the reserves at current prices of 150 million tonnes, and lets assume that we can’t get any from Bolivia and jso rule out 50% of reserves.

Let’s increase the kilowatt hours for a car from the Leaf’s 24 to 60.

It turns out then that we might be running a bit short after the first 1.8billion vehicles or so!

It hardly seems a very urgent problem.