Hybrid Vehicles no image

Published on January 28th, 2009 | by Jo Borrás

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First it Killed the Electric Car; Now CARB Goes After Plug-in Hybrids


hybrid_tombstone Last week, the East Bay Express published an article regarding the California Air Resources Board’s (CARB) plans for aftermarket, plug-in hybrid conversions.

Proving once again that CARB is a political machine with something more than “clean air” in its agenda, the board is set to deal a punishing, bureaucratic body-blow to startup companies like 3 Prong Power and A123 Systems.

It gets worse:  CARB just got carte blanche to do whatever it wants.

Find out what the guys at CARB have to say about the evil of plug-in hybrid cars after the jump (and feel free to guess which corrupt CARB members will have to be bribed in the comments!).

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Before I go too far with the blatant accusations of greed, corruption, and back-room politicking at CARB (is that even possible?) it should be noted that the board claim their new regulations are not intended to stifle new technologies, bankrupt new businesses, or cost the American economy even more jobs.  Instead, CARB says they are trying to ensure that new technology doesn’t roll back their attempts to limit cancer-causing emissions, citing the board’s main function as regulating smog, and not greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide.

Let me say that again, if only for my own benefit:  CARB is supposed to concern itself with harmful vehicle emissions, yet is hell-bent on passing new legislation to effectively shut down at least two startup companies that offer viable, proven products intended to cut back on harmful vehicle emissions.

CARB intends to shutter at least two companies that provide exactly the sort of desirable, competitive jobs that will drive the new “green economy” this nation is essentially depending on to usher in a new era of full employment, environmental responsibility, ecological awareness, energy independence, and a national security policy that does not rely on bombing the middle East back into the stone age.

Details of CARB’s full-scale assault on aftermarket hybrid technology includes forcing the startup companies to put their products through expensive smog tests that could cost as much as $125,000 per car, for however many cars the agency decides it must examine.

It should be noted that, in the past, violation of CARB mandates have led to aftermarket companies being fined up to $10,000 per violation, PER VEHICLE.  The new, draconian CARB law would also require companies to warranty for the changes made to hybrids for up to ten years or 150,000 miles – something that CARB has never requested of anyone, including aftermarket performance tuners like Dinan, Kleemann, and Saleen.

Where CARB may have expressed some reasonable and valid concerns about the safety of plug-in hybrid conversions (how do they hold up in a severe impact, are there any radiation issues, etc.?) its members chose to engage in this bizarre power move, effectively crushing some interesting electric tech before it really has a chance to develop into an ICE-beater… which sounds an awful lot like what happened several years ago, when GM’s EV1 seemed to threaten CARB chairman Alan Lloyd’s precious hydrogen fuel-cell research.

In short: with CARB publicly attacking everything it was originally intended to defend, we have to start seriously questioning its motives.  Only time (or you, in the comments!) will tell what technologies the proposed CARB legislation will eventually benefit… but expect the heavy-hitters on the board to be big stockholders in whatever they turn out to be.

Hint: it’s probably ethanol.  See below.

Exhibit 28-5

Image Credits:  original artwork; pie chart from the State of Texas.



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About the Author

I've been involved in motorsports and tuning since 1997, and write for a number of blogs in the Important Media network. You can find me on Twitter, Skype (jo.borras) or Google+.



  • CNCMike

    Fortunately for all of us this has been postponed and they ae re-thinking(re?) their position on this matter.

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/01/25/carb-puts-off-plug-in-hybrid-conversion-warranty-emissions-deci/

  • CNCMike

    Fortunately for all of us this has been postponed and they ae re-thinking(re?) their position on this matter.

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/01/25/carb-puts-off-plug-in-hybrid-conversion-warranty-emissions-deci/

  • http://sunshinesupercars.blogspot.com Jo Borras

    The real issue isn’t the legislation, it’s the powers being granted to an agency that has an established history of acting solely in the guarded self-interests of its members.

  • http://sunshinesupercars.blogspot.com Jo Borras

    The real issue isn’t the legislation, it’s the powers being granted to an agency that has an established history of acting solely in the guarded self-interests of its members.

  • Mark in Texas

    Another sad story from bankrupt, stupidity wracked California. The days when California was a leader for innovation are in the past.

    As an interesting side note at the national level, EPA requirements for extremely expensive testing coupled with crippling fines for violations is why there have been so few vehicles converted to use compressed natural gas even though natural gas tends to be cheaper to use and produces fewer emissions. I am less prone to accuse the EPA of financial motivations than of bureaucratic megalomania. Even if the CARB members have no financial interests, the tendency of unaccountable bureaucrats to impose their will on the public just because they can is still going to be there.

  • Mark in Texas

    Another sad story from bankrupt, stupidity wracked California. The days when California was a leader for innovation are in the past.

    As an interesting side note at the national level, EPA requirements for extremely expensive testing coupled with crippling fines for violations is why there have been so few vehicles converted to use compressed natural gas even though natural gas tends to be cheaper to use and produces fewer emissions. I am less prone to accuse the EPA of financial motivations than of bureaucratic megalomania. Even if the CARB members have no financial interests, the tendency of unaccountable bureaucrats to impose their will on the public just because they can is still going to be there.

  • http://www.gmoafrica.org/category/biofuels James

    Which sane person would frustrate efforts to wean us from oil? Isn’t this what makers of hybrid cars are trying to do? We’re in the era of clean energy. That’s why there’s a lot of enthusiasm for such biofuels as ethanol and cellulosic ethanol.

  • http://www.gmoafrica.org/category/biofuels James

    Which sane person would frustrate efforts to wean us from oil? Isn’t this what makers of hybrid cars are trying to do? We’re in the era of clean energy. That’s why there’s a lot of enthusiasm for such biofuels as ethanol and cellulosic ethanol.

  • http://sunshinesupercars.blogspot.com Jo Borras

    @Mark:

    agree 100%. Exactly right.

    @James:

    there may not be any sane people left at CARB.

  • http://sunshinesupercars.blogspot.com Jo Borras

    @Mark:

    agree 100%. Exactly right.

    @James:

    there may not be any sane people left at CARB.

  • Doug

    Damn Mark and I agree on something.

  • Doug

    Damn Mark and I agree on something.

  • Tawab

    Does anyone know how we can possibly stop these Neo-Tyrants or even have a say in anything thats going on? How is this not being spread through the Bay-Area communites?

  • Tawab

    Does anyone know how we can possibly stop these Neo-Tyrants or even have a say in anything thats going on? How is this not being spread through the Bay-Area communites?

  • kelly

    “Details of CARB’s full-scale assault on aftermarket hybrid technology includes forcing the startup companies to put their products through expensive smog tests that could cost as much as $125,000 per car, for however many cars the agency decides it must examine.”

    Does GM have a separate board of directors meeting?

  • kelly

    “Details of CARB’s full-scale assault on aftermarket hybrid technology includes forcing the startup companies to put their products through expensive smog tests that could cost as much as $125,000 per car, for however many cars the agency decides it must examine.”

    Does GM have a separate board of directors meeting?

  • ChuckL

    This is just another example of bureaucrats without knowledge and unwilling to accept information from others, regulating how to get a result instead of just requiring the result and allowing scientists and inventors to solve the “HOW”.

    Government is just “Too Damn Big” and it is populated with would-be “do-gooders” who have no idea of the costs of things or of how to do what they want, other than of course, how to give themselves a salary increase during a recession (?depression?)

  • ChuckL

    This is just another example of bureaucrats without knowledge and unwilling to accept information from others, regulating how to get a result instead of just requiring the result and allowing scientists and inventors to solve the “HOW”.

    Government is just “Too Damn Big” and it is populated with would-be “do-gooders” who have no idea of the costs of things or of how to do what they want, other than of course, how to give themselves a salary increase during a recession (?depression?)

  • Bob

    I work for a biogas to electricity or pipeline company. We will not look at projects in California because of the insane environmental rules. Why would you expect them to be any different with hybrids?

    Although I have some concerns over the real life-cycle costs of hybrids as well as the real costs of owning on for 200k miles, I think they are a good enough idea to be used. It’s a shame that the bureaucrats want to get in the way of something that has some real value.

  • Bob

    I work for a biogas to electricity or pipeline company. We will not look at projects in California because of the insane environmental rules. Why would you expect them to be any different with hybrids?

    Although I have some concerns over the real life-cycle costs of hybrids as well as the real costs of owning on for 200k miles, I think they are a good enough idea to be used. It’s a shame that the bureaucrats want to get in the way of something that has some real value.

  • Bob

    Wean us from oil? Why? Haven’t we learned anything from the ethanol fiasco? Why wouldn’t we use a relatively inexpensive fuel, lubricant and raw material resource like oil or coal? The US has plentiful resources we do not develop and use. We block development and use of our resources, then complain about the cost and go on with some inane idea that we can do without it. We are much like California,we want all the benefits of resources, do out best to prevent their use in our back yard and then complain when we don’t have all we need. Someone outside California is required to provide all the stuff they want, electricity, water and the like. As far as I’m concerned, if they want environmental purity, they can take thirsty walks to work, stop AC and heat in their houses and live the pure life. Leave the rest of us out of it.

    Biofuels have a place, but the rush to biofuels has created real food shortages in the third world. Pretty selfish of us who live comfortably and expect others to suffer for our ideals.

    If your response is climate change (warming, disruption or whatever the buzz word is), please give me one or two predictions of that have actually happened. Use good data, not the cooked, bad math data those lined up at the government grant trough use. Also explain why we are in about a decade of cooling.

  • Bob

    Wean us from oil? Why? Haven’t we learned anything from the ethanol fiasco? Why wouldn’t we use a relatively inexpensive fuel, lubricant and raw material resource like oil or coal? The US has plentiful resources we do not develop and use. We block development and use of our resources, then complain about the cost and go on with some inane idea that we can do without it. We are much like California,we want all the benefits of resources, do out best to prevent their use in our back yard and then complain when we don’t have all we need. Someone outside California is required to provide all the stuff they want, electricity, water and the like. As far as I’m concerned, if they want environmental purity, they can take thirsty walks to work, stop AC and heat in their houses and live the pure life. Leave the rest of us out of it.

    Biofuels have a place, but the rush to biofuels has created real food shortages in the third world. Pretty selfish of us who live comfortably and expect others to suffer for our ideals.

    If your response is climate change (warming, disruption or whatever the buzz word is), please give me one or two predictions of that have actually happened. Use good data, not the cooked, bad math data those lined up at the government grant trough use. Also explain why we are in about a decade of cooling.

  • http://sunshinesupercars.blogspot.com Jo Borras

    @ChuckL

    I agree with what you’re saying, but I have to step back a bit and say that the politicos might have a harder time acquiring knowledge than you think. Simply, they’re not engineers, they’re not in the car business, and have to wade through REAMS of vapor-ware, wishful thinking, and pie-in-the-sky press releases (see Baily Blade, SSC Ultimate Aero EV, etc.)

    Unarmed and unaware as the policy-makers are (and, let’s face it, we ALL want to believe the BS) there is little hope for these guys to get it right.

  • http://sunshinesupercars.blogspot.com Jo Borras

    @ChuckL

    I agree with what you’re saying, but I have to step back a bit and say that the politicos might have a harder time acquiring knowledge than you think. Simply, they’re not engineers, they’re not in the car business, and have to wade through REAMS of vapor-ware, wishful thinking, and pie-in-the-sky press releases (see Baily Blade, SSC Ultimate Aero EV, etc.)

    Unarmed and unaware as the policy-makers are (and, let’s face it, we ALL want to believe the BS) there is little hope for these guys to get it right.

  • Dennis

    i don’t disagree that ethanol subsidies are all out of proportion. However, to accept the premise of your article, one has to accept the premise that CO2 is a harmful emission. I’m not that gullible.

  • Dennis

    i don’t disagree that ethanol subsidies are all out of proportion. However, to accept the premise of your article, one has to accept the premise that CO2 is a harmful emission. I’m not that gullible.

  • http://washuu.net Dr. Ellen

    A bureaucrat never got fired for saying “no, we need more studies first”. The FDA will not let us have drugs in use across the rest of the world, and much as CARB despises current cars, it won’t let us have anything else.

  • http://washuu.net Dr. Ellen

    A bureaucrat never got fired for saying “no, we need more studies first”. The FDA will not let us have drugs in use across the rest of the world, and much as CARB despises current cars, it won’t let us have anything else.

  • Sotiredofitall

    More proof that California is truely the land of fruit and nuts. Million dollar houses sold to people making $40k a year. Bankrupt city and state pension plans. Nancy Pelosi Millionaire celebrities telling the working class how to live responsibly. Where is that earthquake we’ve all be waiting on?

  • Sotiredofitall

    More proof that California is truely the land of fruit and nuts. Million dollar houses sold to people making $40k a year. Bankrupt city and state pension plans. Nancy Pelosi Millionaire celebrities telling the working class how to live responsibly. Where is that earthquake we’ve all be waiting on?

  • KenB

    Too bad for California. Californians have the government they deserve.

    Tell the technological innovators to come to Texas. They will find us far more hospitable. And they can make it a contractual condition of all sales that none of their products may be exported to California. We Texans would take umbrage at California trying to regulate what can happen here.

  • KenB

    Too bad for California. Californians have the government they deserve.

    Tell the technological innovators to come to Texas. They will find us far more hospitable. And they can make it a contractual condition of all sales that none of their products may be exported to California. We Texans would take umbrage at California trying to regulate what can happen here.

  • Kieth Nissen

    Is it possible that CARB is interested in just where and how the electric power is generated? that seems like a legitimate question. If the electric cars are powered by coal fired generators then the system is not so green. I do not live in CA. I do not know how power is generated there (although I am sure it is at least partly natural gas- which is not so bad).

  • Kieth Nissen

    Is it possible that CARB is interested in just where and how the electric power is generated? that seems like a legitimate question. If the electric cars are powered by coal fired generators then the system is not so green. I do not live in CA. I do not know how power is generated there (although I am sure it is at least partly natural gas- which is not so bad).

  • Ron Nord

    We have way to much government in Californin. We’ve went from the 7th largest economy in the world to less than a banana republic because of people and boards like this, in less than a decade California is the state to be from and not to go to. These people can’t be gotten rid of with out getting back to the way it used to be 2 decades ago when we had part time legislators that had only 6 months in Sacramento and were making less than $25,000 per year. It was part time and they did it because they cared for the state and not the new SUV or the $110,000 plus salary and the per diem of $135 per day. What we need is a John Galt like in “Atlas Shrugged” and not some nit pickers who are looking for glory. We will never have a great state again unless we shed government, we have to much and to many and they cause trouble.

  • Ron Nord

    We have way to much government in Californin. We’ve went from the 7th largest economy in the world to less than a banana republic because of people and boards like this, in less than a decade California is the state to be from and not to go to. These people can’t be gotten rid of with out getting back to the way it used to be 2 decades ago when we had part time legislators that had only 6 months in Sacramento and were making less than $25,000 per year. It was part time and they did it because they cared for the state and not the new SUV or the $110,000 plus salary and the per diem of $135 per day. What we need is a John Galt like in “Atlas Shrugged” and not some nit pickers who are looking for glory. We will never have a great state again unless we shed government, we have to much and to many and they cause trouble.

  • dennymack

    So CARB turns out to be,purely by coincidence I’m sure, a great tool by which the big players in their area can wipe out the little players, whether they are independent gas stations or new car companies.

    There is a reason this is worse in leftish California than elsewhere:in CA we were all taught that government is there to protect us from business. It is our equalizer, so “David” does not have to go toe-to-toe with these capitalist goliaths. We were taught that big business fears gov’t, because it brings accountability and exerts itself on behalf of the public.

    We were also taught about unicorns.

    Doesn’t it make sense that big business would like to set the rules in its market in its own favor?

    Doesn’t it make sense that the best, most convenient way for them to set the rules is through regulation?

    Doesn’t it make sense that they will have more influence on the relevant agencies than I will?

    The concept of gov’t agencies as OUR watchdogs has got to go.

  • dennymack

    So CARB turns out to be,purely by coincidence I’m sure, a great tool by which the big players in their area can wipe out the little players, whether they are independent gas stations or new car companies.

    There is a reason this is worse in leftish California than elsewhere:in CA we were all taught that government is there to protect us from business. It is our equalizer, so “David” does not have to go toe-to-toe with these capitalist goliaths. We were taught that big business fears gov’t, because it brings accountability and exerts itself on behalf of the public.

    We were also taught about unicorns.

    Doesn’t it make sense that big business would like to set the rules in its market in its own favor?

    Doesn’t it make sense that the best, most convenient way for them to set the rules is through regulation?

    Doesn’t it make sense that they will have more influence on the relevant agencies than I will?

    The concept of gov’t agencies as OUR watchdogs has got to go.

  • brian

    That’s just it, Kieth. They don’t generate their own power in California.

    Maybe that’s what they really mean when they say “end reliance on foreign power”.

  • brian

    That’s just it, Kieth. They don’t generate their own power in California.

    Maybe that’s what they really mean when they say “end reliance on foreign power”.

  • dennymack

    Kieth Nissen:

    How is electricity generated in California? Easy: it isn’t! (Okay, some is, but not enough)

    It’s so hard to do such things in CA that they import their juice.

    (See “rolling blackouts” “Enron” “Grey Davis, demise of”)

  • dennymack

    Kieth Nissen:

    How is electricity generated in California? Easy: it isn’t! (Okay, some is, but not enough)

    It’s so hard to do such things in CA that they import their juice.

    (See “rolling blackouts” “Enron” “Grey Davis, demise of”)

  • augustr

    Another use for natural gas is not what people who use natural gas for heating reallly want to hear about. Nuclear power for power plants to make electricity for cars and other stuff.

    No ethanol, which increases food prices.

  • augustr

    Another use for natural gas is not what people who use natural gas for heating reallly want to hear about. Nuclear power for power plants to make electricity for cars and other stuff.

    No ethanol, which increases food prices.

  • Mason

    California has become an insane asylum. I’m very concerned about the future of my family that lives there. Robber barons posing as Utopians, I’m not sure which are worse, control the levers of government.

  • Mason

    California has become an insane asylum. I’m very concerned about the future of my family that lives there. Robber barons posing as Utopians, I’m not sure which are worse, control the levers of government.

  • ginsocal

    CARB has always behaved like petty tyrants. When I lived in Idaho, our smog checks were simple and inexpensive ($13). No underhood examination. You could have a fuel-burning hemi in there, and as long as yor car achieved the numbers for that make, model and year, you were good to go. Not in CA. I can’t make any changes to my ’79 Bronco that would improve economy (and emissions) because it’s too Screw them. just one more reason we’re going back to Idaho ASAP.

  • ginsocal

    CARB has always behaved like petty tyrants. When I lived in Idaho, our smog checks were simple and inexpensive ($13). No underhood examination. You could have a fuel-burning hemi in there, and as long as yor car achieved the numbers for that make, model and year, you were good to go. Not in CA. I can’t make any changes to my ’79 Bronco that would improve economy (and emissions) because it’s too Screw them. just one more reason we’re going back to Idaho ASAP.

  • Your old pal Bob

    Just a quick question: what do we need to do to kill CARB? Straight up killing. How can our bankrupt state afford this nonsense? They’re certainly not doing us any favors…

  • Your old pal Bob

    Just a quick question: what do we need to do to kill CARB? Straight up killing. How can our bankrupt state afford this nonsense? They’re certainly not doing us any favors…

  • Greg F

    I love it when a green plan comes to fruition.

  • Greg F

    I love it when a green plan comes to fruition.

  • Sidewinder

    Nothing like hearing a bunch of backward, green-toothed idiots bash California as a “land of liberal fruits & nuts” when the vast majority of our problems come from conservatism run amok.

    Crazy ass Prop 13, public utility deregulation, 2/3 majority required to raise taxes, Republican stonewalling & CARB corruption.

    Go back to Idaho & Utah & take your friends with ya. And good riddance!

  • Sidewinder

    Nothing like hearing a bunch of backward, green-toothed idiots bash California as a “land of liberal fruits & nuts” when the vast majority of our problems come from conservatism run amok.

    Crazy ass Prop 13, public utility deregulation, 2/3 majority required to raise taxes, Republican stonewalling & CARB corruption.

    Go back to Idaho & Utah & take your friends with ya. And good riddance!

  • Foreign advisor

    California will strangle itself with regulation and government union workers, eventually.

    It is really, really, too bad California will probably get bailed out via the messiah Obama and Granny Botox Pelosi.

    From what can be seen, all the smart people and business either are gone, or are preparing to leave in the near future.

    Sidewinder will be pleased indeed when California becomes non-distinguishable from your common third world countries.

    The sooner California is irrelevant, the better.

  • Foreign advisor

    California will strangle itself with regulation and government union workers, eventually.

    It is really, really, too bad California will probably get bailed out via the messiah Obama and Granny Botox Pelosi.

    From what can be seen, all the smart people and business either are gone, or are preparing to leave in the near future.

    Sidewinder will be pleased indeed when California becomes non-distinguishable from your common third world countries.

    The sooner California is irrelevant, the better.

  • A.P.

    This is ultimately self-defeating.

    If we suppress progressive technologies, other countries will fill the gap and sell their products to our markets anyway.

    We can’t compete globally in manufacturing, our wages are too high, relative to Indonesia and China, but we can compete in creating new technologies, innovative ideas, including green technologies that are increasingly desired by developed and emerging nations.

    Do we want to suppress innovation and fall behind in global business? That doesn’t create jobs, it just puts more money into fewer pockets, broadening the gap between rich and poor and stifling small business. Entrepreneurship is vital to a healthy economy.

    CARB is either lacking in imagination or promoting a hidden political agenda if they can’t find more economical ways to test emissions on new vehicles.

  • A.P.

    This is ultimately self-defeating.

    If we suppress progressive technologies, other countries will fill the gap and sell their products to our markets anyway.

    We can’t compete globally in manufacturing, our wages are too high, relative to Indonesia and China, but we can compete in creating new technologies, innovative ideas, including green technologies that are increasingly desired by developed and emerging nations.

    Do we want to suppress innovation and fall behind in global business? That doesn’t create jobs, it just puts more money into fewer pockets, broadening the gap between rich and poor and stifling small business. Entrepreneurship is vital to a healthy economy.

    CARB is either lacking in imagination or promoting a hidden political agenda if they can’t find more economical ways to test emissions on new vehicles.

  • SamIam

    Sometimes I speculate that our government has been taken over by a foreign enemy power because it would be difficult to do worse. It’s like there is a consistent, concerted effort to sabotage things. And Californians seem to be a party to the effort.

  • SamIam

    Sometimes I speculate that our government has been taken over by a foreign enemy power because it would be difficult to do worse. It’s like there is a consistent, concerted effort to sabotage things. And Californians seem to be a party to the effort.

  • SamIam

    Sometimes I speculate that our government has been taken over by a foreign enemy power because it would be difficult to do worse. It’s like there is a consistent, concerted effort to sabotage things. And Californians seem to be a party to the effort.

  • http://www.politicallyempowered.com Deborah

    Good point, A.P. The morass of bureaucracy and rules and regulations (government imposed) force out innovation. That’s what has converted California from the state that leads the country to the state everyone wants to leave. And, the combination of government and business — that even 15 years ago was unheard of — became an “en vogue” thing in the 1990’s. It was the European influence of government subsidizing business that caught on here. (Our economy is showing the problems that combination causes). I don’t know much about CARB, but from what I’ve read here, I wouldn’t be surprised if this agency was created (or corrupted) out of that way of thinking. Good luck to you all in California (I have two brothers and their families who live in the LA area. I worry about them everyday.)

  • http://www.politicallyempowered.com Deborah

    Good point, A.P. The morass of bureaucracy and rules and regulations (government imposed) force out innovation. That’s what has converted California from the state that leads the country to the state everyone wants to leave. And, the combination of government and business — that even 15 years ago was unheard of — became an “en vogue” thing in the 1990’s. It was the European influence of government subsidizing business that caught on here. (Our economy is showing the problems that combination causes). I don’t know much about CARB, but from what I’ve read here, I wouldn’t be surprised if this agency was created (or corrupted) out of that way of thinking. Good luck to you all in California (I have two brothers and their families who live in the LA area. I worry about them everyday.)

  • http://www.politicallyempowered.com Deborah

    Good point, A.P. The morass of bureaucracy and rules and regulations (government imposed) force out innovation. That’s what has converted California from the state that leads the country to the state everyone wants to leave. And, the combination of government and business — that even 15 years ago was unheard of — became an “en vogue” thing in the 1990’s. It was the European influence of government subsidizing business that caught on here. (Our economy is showing the problems that combination causes). I don’t know much about CARB, but from what I’ve read here, I wouldn’t be surprised if this agency was created (or corrupted) out of that way of thinking. Good luck to you all in California (I have two brothers and their families who live in the LA area. I worry about them everyday.)

  • Mark in Texas

    Sidewinder

    Prop 13 was passed back in what – 1978? 1979? It does not apply to any house sold since then. I would guess that there are very few houses in California that are still owned by the same people who owned them 30 years ago and thus covered by Prop 13.

    Time to get yourself some new talking points.

  • Mark in Texas

    Sidewinder

    Prop 13 was passed back in what – 1978? 1979? It does not apply to any house sold since then. I would guess that there are very few houses in California that are still owned by the same people who owned them 30 years ago and thus covered by Prop 13.

    Time to get yourself some new talking points.

  • Mark in Texas

    Sidewinder

    Prop 13 was passed back in what – 1978? 1979? It does not apply to any house sold since then. I would guess that there are very few houses in California that are still owned by the same people who owned them 30 years ago and thus covered by Prop 13.

    Time to get yourself some new talking points.

  • http://sunshinesupercars.blogspot.com Jo Borras

    @Kelly

    You quoted my post here: “Details of CARB’s full-scale assault on aftermarket hybrid technology includes forcing the startup companies to put their products through expensive smog tests that could cost as much as $125,000 per car, for however many cars the agency decides it must examine.” and asked “Does GM have a separate board of directors meeting?”

    If I understand you correctly, it seems like you’re trying to point out that the same rule applies to GM (or Chrysler, etc.), and should, therefor, stand.

    My response to that idea is that those companies (GM, Chrysler, etc.) build mass-market consumption cars, while these companies manufacture automotive components. A more applicable comparison, I think, would be the one I made between A123 and performance tuners, since both types of company make add-on parts that enhance different aspects of a car’s performance.

    Looking at it that way, it seems that CARB has a special vendetta against electric tech, and seems more than willing to let liquid-fuel ICE tech go (be that ethanol or hydrogen).

  • http://sunshinesupercars.blogspot.com Jo Borras

    @Kelly

    You quoted my post here: “Details of CARB’s full-scale assault on aftermarket hybrid technology includes forcing the startup companies to put their products through expensive smog tests that could cost as much as $125,000 per car, for however many cars the agency decides it must examine.” and asked “Does GM have a separate board of directors meeting?”

    If I understand you correctly, it seems like you’re trying to point out that the same rule applies to GM (or Chrysler, etc.), and should, therefor, stand.

    My response to that idea is that those companies (GM, Chrysler, etc.) build mass-market consumption cars, while these companies manufacture automotive components. A more applicable comparison, I think, would be the one I made between A123 and performance tuners, since both types of company make add-on parts that enhance different aspects of a car’s performance.

    Looking at it that way, it seems that CARB has a special vendetta against electric tech, and seems more than willing to let liquid-fuel ICE tech go (be that ethanol or hydrogen).

  • http://freealabamastan.blogspot.org Paul A’Barge

    Can someone explain to me in simple English why anyone wanting to start such companies would locate in California?

    I’m just gob-smacked. By that, I mean milk-spitting on computer monitor gob-smacked.

    Why in the world would you not move your business/start up to Texas? For all the obvious reasons, I might add.

    Frankly, I’ve lost my patience with businessmen who think they can get away with starting these kinds of necessary, creative and positive businesses in California.

    What were you guys thinking?

  • http://freealabamastan.blogspot.org Paul A’Barge

    Can someone explain to me in simple English why anyone wanting to start such companies would locate in California?

    I’m just gob-smacked. By that, I mean milk-spitting on computer monitor gob-smacked.

    Why in the world would you not move your business/start up to Texas? For all the obvious reasons, I might add.

    Frankly, I’ve lost my patience with businessmen who think they can get away with starting these kinds of necessary, creative and positive businesses in California.

    What were you guys thinking?

  • http://freealabamastan.blogspot.org Paul A’Barge

    Can someone explain to me in simple English why anyone wanting to start such companies would locate in California?

    I’m just gob-smacked. By that, I mean milk-spitting on computer monitor gob-smacked.

    Why in the world would you not move your business/start up to Texas? For all the obvious reasons, I might add.

    Frankly, I’ve lost my patience with businessmen who think they can get away with starting these kinds of necessary, creative and positive businesses in California.

    What were you guys thinking?

  • http://sunshinesupercars.blogspot.com Jo Borras

    @Paul

    Amen, brother. I have never had anything but problems dealing with California – from crooked officials to crookeder banks and crookederer dealers. When the Big One finally hits and Arizona becomes beachfront property, I’ll be there with bells on.

  • http://sunshinesupercars.blogspot.com Jo Borras

    @Paul

    Amen, brother. I have never had anything but problems dealing with California – from crooked officials to crookeder banks and crookederer dealers. When the Big One finally hits and Arizona becomes beachfront property, I’ll be there with bells on.

  • http://sunshinesupercars.blogspot.com Jo Borras

    @Paul

    Amen, brother. I have never had anything but problems dealing with California – from crooked officials to crookeder banks and crookederer dealers. When the Big One finally hits and Arizona becomes beachfront property, I’ll be there with bells on.

  • Tim Cleland

    One thing I love about this website as compared to other “Green” websites is the incredibly strong streak of libertarianism in its audience. Usually, you get a whole slew of liberal mamby-pamby know-it-alls (Sidewinder comes to mind) who cling to government like a newborn chimpanzee to its mother.

    Oh, and great article Jo Barras.

  • Tim Cleland

    One thing I love about this website as compared to other “Green” websites is the incredibly strong streak of libertarianism in its audience. Usually, you get a whole slew of liberal mamby-pamby know-it-alls (Sidewinder comes to mind) who cling to government like a newborn chimpanzee to its mother.

    Oh, and great article Jo Barras.

  • Tim Cleland

    One thing I love about this website as compared to other “Green” websites is the incredibly strong streak of libertarianism in its audience. Usually, you get a whole slew of liberal mamby-pamby know-it-alls (Sidewinder comes to mind) who cling to government like a newborn chimpanzee to its mother.

    Oh, and great article Jo Barras.

  • zorba

    God, please help us who are stuck in California.

  • zorba

    God, please help us who are stuck in California.

  • zorba

    I’m the guy who belives coal can be burned cleanly if it were hydrolyized or gasified.

    I lived on a commune 35 years ago, we built 32 batch fed digesters on farms in Kentucky. No permits were required, we just built them for a decent profit and taught the farmers how to use and maintain them.

    I have been told most of them are still in operation.

    I tried to build a continueous fed digester here in Palmdale, Calif.

    I went to city planning and got a shock.

    Besides the usual permits and fee’s, there was Air resourses board, EIR, fire dept, ground water control, special use permits, zoning variances, perculation tests, etc, etc.

    The EIR was $20k itself if not contested.

    Air wanted $1,700, the land tests six of them were over $10k, on and on.

    We have Agriculture zoned property even though the city annexed us into it against our and our nieghbors wishes. For a family sized digester it would have cost over $50k before i could build.

    Then i found out i was not allowed to generate any sludge?

    Digesters do make sterile sludge, it is great natural fertilizer.

    I can get a free federal permit to brew fuel alcohol but the city requires all of the above for a still and even more permits with annual fees.

    The laws, rules and regulations are anti-alternative, anti green.

    It is very depressing knowing i can build digesters and stills to lower our energy dependence but cannot due to all the government imposed restrictions and costs.

  • zorba

    I’m the guy who belives coal can be burned cleanly if it were hydrolyized or gasified.

    I lived on a commune 35 years ago, we built 32 batch fed digesters on farms in Kentucky. No permits were required, we just built them for a decent profit and taught the farmers how to use and maintain them.

    I have been told most of them are still in operation.

    I tried to build a continueous fed digester here in Palmdale, Calif.

    I went to city planning and got a shock.

    Besides the usual permits and fee’s, there was Air resourses board, EIR, fire dept, ground water control, special use permits, zoning variances, perculation tests, etc, etc.

    The EIR was $20k itself if not contested.

    Air wanted $1,700, the land tests six of them were over $10k, on and on.

    We have Agriculture zoned property even though the city annexed us into it against our and our nieghbors wishes. For a family sized digester it would have cost over $50k before i could build.

    Then i found out i was not allowed to generate any sludge?

    Digesters do make sterile sludge, it is great natural fertilizer.

    I can get a free federal permit to brew fuel alcohol but the city requires all of the above for a still and even more permits with annual fees.

    The laws, rules and regulations are anti-alternative, anti green.

    It is very depressing knowing i can build digesters and stills to lower our energy dependence but cannot due to all the government imposed restrictions and costs.

  • zorba

    I’m the guy who belives coal can be burned cleanly if it were hydrolyized or gasified.

    I lived on a commune 35 years ago, we built 32 batch fed digesters on farms in Kentucky. No permits were required, we just built them for a decent profit and taught the farmers how to use and maintain them.

    I have been told most of them are still in operation.

    I tried to build a continueous fed digester here in Palmdale, Calif.

    I went to city planning and got a shock.

    Besides the usual permits and fee’s, there was Air resourses board, EIR, fire dept, ground water control, special use permits, zoning variances, perculation tests, etc, etc.

    The EIR was $20k itself if not contested.

    Air wanted $1,700, the land tests six of them were over $10k, on and on.

    We have Agriculture zoned property even though the city annexed us into it against our and our nieghbors wishes. For a family sized digester it would have cost over $50k before i could build.

    Then i found out i was not allowed to generate any sludge?

    Digesters do make sterile sludge, it is great natural fertilizer.

    I can get a free federal permit to brew fuel alcohol but the city requires all of the above for a still and even more permits with annual fees.

    The laws, rules and regulations are anti-alternative, anti green.

    It is very depressing knowing i can build digesters and stills to lower our energy dependence but cannot due to all the government imposed restrictions and costs.

  • http://www.chemicallygreen.com Steven R. Mason

    Well, one green item you can count on. California government and CARB will eventually put the last few nails in the coffin of a state that is going bankrupt and slowly dyeing. California, a green state, not hardly. A nightmare state for business owners, heck yes.

    Steve Mason

    Chemically Green

  • http://www.chemicallygreen.com Steven R. Mason

    Well, one green item you can count on. California government and CARB will eventually put the last few nails in the coffin of a state that is going bankrupt and slowly dyeing. California, a green state, not hardly. A nightmare state for business owners, heck yes.

    Steve Mason

    Chemically Green

  • http://www.chemicallygreen.com Steven R. Mason

    Well, one green item you can count on. California government and CARB will eventually put the last few nails in the coffin of a state that is going bankrupt and slowly dyeing. California, a green state, not hardly. A nightmare state for business owners, heck yes.

    Steve Mason

    Chemically Green

  • Aaron Willis

    CARB isn’t full of morons. It’s full of greed. There’s a very big difference between the two. Fact is that they’re protecting their investments. Of COURSE they don’t want electric vehicles. Of COURSE they don’t want plug-in hybrids. Why would they? With a vested interest in H2 Fuel Cells, they’re more likely to to say that EVERY vehicle be tested, than to simply allow these small companies to do what NEEDS to be done.

    Anyone here realize that 90% of the people on these boards are OLD? What do they care if global warming continues? They’ll be dead before the planet shuts down and reboots. They obviously couldn’t care less about their children or grand children or anyone else for that matter as long as they die with their pockets lined with cash. They’re also probably from the old school where they should be skeptical about everything and anything. So GW doesn’t exist for all they know and they were put on a board designed to lower emission and green-house gasses, but they don’t know why… LOL

    We’re all going to hell in a hand basket because we let our government have too much control.

    All politicians are dirty, lying, corrupt sacks of crap.

  • Aaron Willis

    CARB isn’t full of morons. It’s full of greed. There’s a very big difference between the two. Fact is that they’re protecting their investments. Of COURSE they don’t want electric vehicles. Of COURSE they don’t want plug-in hybrids. Why would they? With a vested interest in H2 Fuel Cells, they’re more likely to to say that EVERY vehicle be tested, than to simply allow these small companies to do what NEEDS to be done.

    Anyone here realize that 90% of the people on these boards are OLD? What do they care if global warming continues? They’ll be dead before the planet shuts down and reboots. They obviously couldn’t care less about their children or grand children or anyone else for that matter as long as they die with their pockets lined with cash. They’re also probably from the old school where they should be skeptical about everything and anything. So GW doesn’t exist for all they know and they were put on a board designed to lower emission and green-house gasses, but they don’t know why… LOL

    We’re all going to hell in a hand basket because we let our government have too much control.

    All politicians are dirty, lying, corrupt sacks of crap.

  • Aaron Willis

    CARB isn’t full of morons. It’s full of greed. There’s a very big difference between the two. Fact is that they’re protecting their investments. Of COURSE they don’t want electric vehicles. Of COURSE they don’t want plug-in hybrids. Why would they? With a vested interest in H2 Fuel Cells, they’re more likely to to say that EVERY vehicle be tested, than to simply allow these small companies to do what NEEDS to be done.

    Anyone here realize that 90% of the people on these boards are OLD? What do they care if global warming continues? They’ll be dead before the planet shuts down and reboots. They obviously couldn’t care less about their children or grand children or anyone else for that matter as long as they die with their pockets lined with cash. They’re also probably from the old school where they should be skeptical about everything and anything. So GW doesn’t exist for all they know and they were put on a board designed to lower emission and green-house gasses, but they don’t know why… LOL

    We’re all going to hell in a hand basket because we let our government have too much control.

    All politicians are dirty, lying, corrupt sacks of crap.

  • Motorat

    With a billion dollar budget, much of from fines imposed on private companies, and hundreds of employees, CARB is drunk with power and self-serving corruption. They admit their science is based on falsified data and yet the job-killing legislation stands while they stonewall the critics. The entire board needs to be prosecuted as environmental felons and the agency shut down.

  • Motorat

    With a billion dollar budget, much of from fines imposed on private companies, and hundreds of employees, CARB is drunk with power and self-serving corruption. They admit their science is based on falsified data and yet the job-killing legislation stands while they stonewall the critics. The entire board needs to be prosecuted as environmental felons and the agency shut down.

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