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Published on December 22nd, 2008 | by Nick Chambers

108

New Patent Reveals Details of EEStor’s Ultracapacitor Technology


A newly-granted US patent (PDF) for the upcoming ultracapacitor technology from secretive Texas-based EEStor contains a ton of detailed information about their near-mythical Electrical Energy Storage Unit (EESU), which has the potential to revolutionize transportation and our energy infrastructure.

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Apparently one EESU weighs 281 pounds, has a volume of 2.63 cubic feet, can be fully charged in 3-6 minutes, is completely unaffected by temperature, will not explode or catch fire in an accident, and provides 52 kWh of electricity (nearly the same amount of energy the Tesla Roadster battery can hold, which reportedly takes the Roadster about 240 miles).

The speed at which an EESU can be charged is fully dependent on the type of power source used to charge it. Ultracapacitors, in general, can accept a near-instantaneous charge, so, if you want to take advantage of the super fast recharge time, you’ll need to get a heavy-duty circuit installed. For instance, if you are trying to charge it from a regular US 110V/15A outlet, it could take you up to 30 hours to get a full charge.

Continuing on with the Tesla Roadster comparison (why the hell not?), we find that one Tesla lithium-ion battery pack (PDF), containing 6800 small batteries, weighs almost 1000 pounds and takes up about 4-5 cubic feet of space. The Tesla Battery can be charged in about 3.5 hours, again given a high enough voltage and amperage. Given this comparison, you can clearly see how the EESU, if it ever comes to market, would truly be a game-changer.

I spent a couple hours last night combing through the detailed EEStor patent (PDF) looking for other clues and made some minor discoveries of my own. The EESU consists of thousands of tiny “components,” each consisting of 10 “elements.” In turn, each element has 100 alternating screen-printed dielectric layers of barium-titanate ceramic powder (94%) mixed with PET plastic (4%) and screen-printed layers of an aluminum electrode.

EEstor says the volume of each dielectric layer is 0.0005651 cubic centimeters and the volume of each electrode layer is 0.00005806 cubic centimeters. Given that there are a thousand of each layer in each component (10 elements X 100 layers), the total volume of each component would be: 0.5651 cubic centimeters + 0.05806 cubic centimeters = 0.62316 cubic centimeters.

To get to a capacity of 52 kWh of electricity, EEStor calculates that each EESU would need about 31,351 of these components. Therefore, the total volume of an EESU’s charge holding parts with a capacity of 52 kWh, according to my calculations, would be: 31,351 X 0.62316 cubic centimeters = 19,537 cubic centimeters, or roughly 0.7 cubic feet.

What’s odd about this is that, according to the patent, the volume of a 52 kWh EESU plus its “box, connectors and associated hardware” is 2.63 cubic feet. So, almost 2 cubic feet of the EESU is devoted to the “box, connectors and associated hardware”? I find this hard to believe. Maybe somebody else should check my calculations (look at column 5, Table 1, and columns 9 and 10 of the patent for the details).

If you were to combine two of these EESUs in one vehicle, it would still weigh roughly half as much as a Tesla battery pack, but take the car twice as far (almost 500 miles). Additionally, because of the nature of ultracapacitors, it would still only take 3-6 minutes to charge both packs (again, only if you have a powerful enough outlet).

I’ve still got my fingers crossed that EEStor is really making progress on the EESU. The fact that they’re backed by ZENN Motors and Lockheed Martin lends some credence to their claims, but I’ll believe it when I see it.

Source: GM-Volt

Image Credit: EEStor Patent



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About the Author

Not your traditional car guy.



  • Doug

    30 hrs with a 110 connection is brutal. So what kind of a connection would you need?

  • Doug

    30 hrs with a 110 connection is brutal. So what kind of a connection would you need?

  • Doug

    30 hrs with a 110 connection is brutal. So what kind of a connection would you need?

  • Nick Chambers

    Doug,

    You know, this is problem with all electric cars that most people don’t realize. The way Tesla gets around this is to offer installation of a special Tesla charging station in your house. I believe their charging station is 220V/80A. At that rate it would take 3.1 hours to fully charge a Roadster — 53,000 kWh/(220V * 80A). So if you wanted a shorter recharge time you’d need to either pump up the voltage or the amps, or both. For instance a 240V/120A circuit would reduce the time to charge a 53 kWh battery to 1.8 hours.

    If you wanted to charge 104,000 kWh of EESU (2 EESUs, 500 mile range) to full in 5 minutes, you’d need something like 5000 volts at 250 amps. That’s a boatload of juice.

    I’m not an electrician and don’t know what the highest power outlet you can install in a residence is… anybody out there able to help?

  • Uncle B

    Sounds like they have found a “gas can” analog for photovoltaic solar or perpetual energy! If we take a train load of these to the radiant resource rich South western U.S. deserts fill them with desert sun, converted to electricity by solar cells, and ship them “transmission loss free” and ready to use, to market, we will be selling “Buckets of Power” – Now who needs Arab and OPEC oil? Certainly not the radiant resource rich U.S.A.! We need to standardize these units, build carbon fiber ultralight commuter cars with exchange bays, and distribute the units like blocks of ice – everywhere! Intermittent wind power can charge them too! This may be the way out of the (GRD)great republican depression, at last!

  • Uncle B

    Sounds like they have found a “gas can” analog for photovoltaic solar or perpetual energy! If we take a train load of these to the radiant resource rich South western U.S. deserts fill them with desert sun, converted to electricity by solar cells, and ship them “transmission loss free” and ready to use, to market, we will be selling “Buckets of Power” – Now who needs Arab and OPEC oil? Certainly not the radiant resource rich U.S.A.! We need to standardize these units, build carbon fiber ultralight commuter cars with exchange bays, and distribute the units like blocks of ice – everywhere! Intermittent wind power can charge them too! This may be the way out of the (GRD)great republican depression, at last!

  • Uncle B

    Sounds like they have found a “gas can” analog for photovoltaic solar or perpetual energy! If we take a train load of these to the radiant resource rich South western U.S. deserts fill them with desert sun, converted to electricity by solar cells, and ship them “transmission loss free” and ready to use, to market, we will be selling “Buckets of Power” – Now who needs Arab and OPEC oil? Certainly not the radiant resource rich U.S.A.! We need to standardize these units, build carbon fiber ultralight commuter cars with exchange bays, and distribute the units like blocks of ice – everywhere! Intermittent wind power can charge them too! This may be the way out of the (GRD)great republican depression, at last!

  • Doug

    Wow! With 5000 volts I can jump start my flux capacitor. Still 3.1 hours is not bad on the 220volt.

  • Doug

    Wow! With 5000 volts I can jump start my flux capacitor. Still 3.1 hours is not bad on the 220volt.

  • Doug

    Wow! With 5000 volts I can jump start my flux capacitor. Still 3.1 hours is not bad on the 220volt.

  • kerry bradshaw

    Editor’s note: Kerry bradshaw is a troll who is paid by big oil companies to comb through alternative energy sites and instill doubt in people’s minds about the use of anything but gasoline/petro-diesel. See this link for more info:

    http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/off-topic/672-ken-kent-kerry-beauchrt-beuchert-beuchrt-biker-rider-krider-8.html

    AND, just so you know, Mr. Bradshaw is full of shit. Look here for an example of the same calculations:

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/07/06/charging-a-tesla-roadster-from-household-outlet-could-take-30-ho/

    Original comment follows:

    You need to revisit basic electricity : a 110/15A input doesn’t require 30 hours to produce 25 kilowatthours of juice. Now, do you really think I have any confidence in your ability to evaluate anything electrical after that demonstration of ignorance?

  • kerry bradshaw

    Editor’s note: Kerry bradshaw is a troll who is paid by big oil companies to comb through alternative energy sites and instill doubt in people’s minds about the use of anything but gasoline/petro-diesel. See this link for more info:

    http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/off-topic/672-ken-kent-kerry-beauchrt-beuchert-beuchrt-biker-rider-krider-8.html

    AND, just so you know, Mr. Bradshaw is full of shit. Look here for an example of the same calculations:

    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/07/06/charging-a-tesla-roadster-from-household-outlet-could-take-30-ho/

    Original comment follows:

    You need to revisit basic electricity : a 110/15A input doesn’t require 30 hours to produce 25 kilowatthours of juice. Now, do you really think I have any confidence in your ability to evaluate anything electrical after that demonstration of ignorance?

  • Doug

    Wow bitch much. A simple I think your math may be off would have worked just fine.

  • Doug

    Wow bitch much. A simple I think your math may be off would have worked just fine.

  • Doug

    Wow bitch much. A simple I think your math may be off would have worked just fine.

  • Useful guy

    The whole idea of these products would be to replace gas stations with current stations. You can just use a constant current source to charge these. 250A isn’t too unreasonable, with higher just as easy to come get.

    If you have only one or two vehicles an in-house charging system isn’t difficult either. It simply charges itself over the 24hrs and dumps the charge into your vehicle once or twice a day.

  • Useful guy

    The whole idea of these products would be to replace gas stations with current stations. You can just use a constant current source to charge these. 250A isn’t too unreasonable, with higher just as easy to come get.

    If you have only one or two vehicles an in-house charging system isn’t difficult either. It simply charges itself over the 24hrs and dumps the charge into your vehicle once or twice a day.

  • Useful guy

    The whole idea of these products would be to replace gas stations with current stations. You can just use a constant current source to charge these. 250A isn’t too unreasonable, with higher just as easy to come get.

    If you have only one or two vehicles an in-house charging system isn’t difficult either. It simply charges itself over the 24hrs and dumps the charge into your vehicle once or twice a day.

  • EeScam

    Who says that they are “backed” by Lockheed Martin? LMT signed an agreement. Zenn Motors “backed” Eestor but Ian Clifford’s latest Q and A with skeptics was essentially “per our NDA I cannot comment”.

    Eestor is a joke.

    I don’t care how many patents are issued – they still have not produced ANYTHING, except for cleverly worded press releases.

    From the Yahoo Finance Message Boards

    Eestor claims that they have a gold mine.

    Credible geologists have gone on record as saying that there is little to no gold in this gold mine.

    Geologic surveys support the claims of the credible geologists.

    Eestor claims that not only is there gold in this mine, there is 30x more gold in this mine than what has ever been discovered in ANY mine!!!!

    Eestor, despite the claims of vast amounts of gold in this mine, has not produced even one tiny spec of gold dust in 7 years of operation.

    Initial backers of the Eestor mine no longer mention any connection between themselves and Eestor.

    Current business partners, when quizzed about the details of the mine and production schedules, defer to Larry de Lawya and non-disclosure agreements.

    This should raise some red flags – even for a gambler.

    “If You Don’t Know Who the Sucker Is, Then It’s You!”

  • EeScam

    Who says that they are “backed” by Lockheed Martin? LMT signed an agreement. Zenn Motors “backed” Eestor but Ian Clifford’s latest Q and A with skeptics was essentially “per our NDA I cannot comment”.

    Eestor is a joke.

    I don’t care how many patents are issued – they still have not produced ANYTHING, except for cleverly worded press releases.

    From the Yahoo Finance Message Boards

    Eestor claims that they have a gold mine.

    Credible geologists have gone on record as saying that there is little to no gold in this gold mine.

    Geologic surveys support the claims of the credible geologists.

    Eestor claims that not only is there gold in this mine, there is 30x more gold in this mine than what has ever been discovered in ANY mine!!!!

    Eestor, despite the claims of vast amounts of gold in this mine, has not produced even one tiny spec of gold dust in 7 years of operation.

    Initial backers of the Eestor mine no longer mention any connection between themselves and Eestor.

    Current business partners, when quizzed about the details of the mine and production schedules, defer to Larry de Lawya and non-disclosure agreements.

    This should raise some red flags – even for a gambler.

    “If You Don’t Know Who the Sucker Is, Then It’s You!”

  • EeScam

    Who says that they are “backed” by Lockheed Martin? LMT signed an agreement. Zenn Motors “backed” Eestor but Ian Clifford’s latest Q and A with skeptics was essentially “per our NDA I cannot comment”.

    Eestor is a joke.

    I don’t care how many patents are issued – they still have not produced ANYTHING, except for cleverly worded press releases.

    From the Yahoo Finance Message Boards

    Eestor claims that they have a gold mine.

    Credible geologists have gone on record as saying that there is little to no gold in this gold mine.

    Geologic surveys support the claims of the credible geologists.

    Eestor claims that not only is there gold in this mine, there is 30x more gold in this mine than what has ever been discovered in ANY mine!!!!

    Eestor, despite the claims of vast amounts of gold in this mine, has not produced even one tiny spec of gold dust in 7 years of operation.

    Initial backers of the Eestor mine no longer mention any connection between themselves and Eestor.

    Current business partners, when quizzed about the details of the mine and production schedules, defer to Larry de Lawya and non-disclosure agreements.

    This should raise some red flags – even for a gambler.

    “If You Don’t Know Who the Sucker Is, Then It’s You!”

  • Tim Cleland

    “You need to revisit basic electricity : a 110/15A input doesn’t require 30 hours to produce 25 kilowatthours of juice. Now, do you really think I have any confidence in your ability to evaluate anything electrical after that demonstration of ignorance?”

    Well, first off, he said 52 kW-hr NOT 25.

    Okay so, 110V x 15A = 1.65 kW.

    52 kW-hr / 1.65 kW = 31.5 hr.

    What universe’s physics were you using?

  • Tim Cleland

    “You need to revisit basic electricity : a 110/15A input doesn’t require 30 hours to produce 25 kilowatthours of juice. Now, do you really think I have any confidence in your ability to evaluate anything electrical after that demonstration of ignorance?”

    Well, first off, he said 52 kW-hr NOT 25.

    Okay so, 110V x 15A = 1.65 kW.

    52 kW-hr / 1.65 kW = 31.5 hr.

    What universe’s physics were you using?

  • Tim Cleland

    “You need to revisit basic electricity : a 110/15A input doesn’t require 30 hours to produce 25 kilowatthours of juice. Now, do you really think I have any confidence in your ability to evaluate anything electrical after that demonstration of ignorance?”

    Well, first off, he said 52 kW-hr NOT 25.

    Okay so, 110V x 15A = 1.65 kW.

    52 kW-hr / 1.65 kW = 31.5 hr.

    What universe’s physics were you using?

  • EeScam

    One more thing – practically everything regarding Eestor is always prefaced by “If” – Eestor has not produced ANYTHING. I would settle for a “demonstration” with cables coming out from behind a curtain connected to any electrical device … for all I know it could be plugged into the wall behind the curtain, but they have not even done this. No credible business or research group conducts business this way! Patents stacked up to the moon mean absolutely nothing – one engineering sample, one small demo unit is all that it takes to put an end to this nonsense. Do we have any of this? No – we have a guy in a company with 9 employees, 3 of which all have the same last name, headquartered between a car insurance office and the yoga wellness center who CLAIMS to be able to do what no one else can do, yet cannot produce one shred of evidence in support of this claim in 7 years.

    Who gives a rip about Zenn – they don’t make anything either. They buy an existing automobile from a French manufacturer without an engine – put in an electric golf cart motor and a battery – and there you have it a Zenn Car! Ian Clifford CEO of Zenn has a background in professional photography and marketing for Christ’s sake! What the heck does he know about anything? Clifford made the same “forward looking statements” about a natural gas powered car that never saw the light of day – prior to hooking up with Eestor.

  • EeScam

    One more thing – practically everything regarding Eestor is always prefaced by “If” – Eestor has not produced ANYTHING. I would settle for a “demonstration” with cables coming out from behind a curtain connected to any electrical device … for all I know it could be plugged into the wall behind the curtain, but they have not even done this. No credible business or research group conducts business this way! Patents stacked up to the moon mean absolutely nothing – one engineering sample, one small demo unit is all that it takes to put an end to this nonsense. Do we have any of this? No – we have a guy in a company with 9 employees, 3 of which all have the same last name, headquartered between a car insurance office and the yoga wellness center who CLAIMS to be able to do what no one else can do, yet cannot produce one shred of evidence in support of this claim in 7 years.

    Who gives a rip about Zenn – they don’t make anything either. They buy an existing automobile from a French manufacturer without an engine – put in an electric golf cart motor and a battery – and there you have it a Zenn Car! Ian Clifford CEO of Zenn has a background in professional photography and marketing for Christ’s sake! What the heck does he know about anything? Clifford made the same “forward looking statements” about a natural gas powered car that never saw the light of day – prior to hooking up with Eestor.

  • http://www.theenergyroadmap.com Garry G

    I’m thrilled that EEStor has stuck around.. but remain convinced that cars are not iPods and that we’ll need all three energy storage devices to make electric cars work. So batteries, fuel cells and capacitors working together might be our most plausible future… But good luck to EEStor!

    Garry G

    Editor

    The Energy Roadmap.com

  • http://www.theenergyroadmap.com Garry G

    I’m thrilled that EEStor has stuck around.. but remain convinced that cars are not iPods and that we’ll need all three energy storage devices to make electric cars work. So batteries, fuel cells and capacitors working together might be our most plausible future… But good luck to EEStor!

    Garry G

    Editor

    The Energy Roadmap.com

  • Aceware

    Somewhere in the charging circuit the voltage needs to be 3500V according to the patent. This might be done inside the EESU itself. Around here, you can have 220V 80A service wired right at the box on the house. To go higher, you have to get a special permit plus, the building zoning must allow it. Higher voltage service requires some special hoops to be jumped through but I wouldn’t think it would be a problem for a service station like setup. I personally wouldn’t want a 400V 200A drop at my house.

  • Aceware

    Somewhere in the charging circuit the voltage needs to be 3500V according to the patent. This might be done inside the EESU itself. Around here, you can have 220V 80A service wired right at the box on the house. To go higher, you have to get a special permit plus, the building zoning must allow it. Higher voltage service requires some special hoops to be jumped through but I wouldn’t think it would be a problem for a service station like setup. I personally wouldn’t want a 400V 200A drop at my house.

  • http://www.theenergyroadmap.com Garry G

    I’m thrilled that EEStor has stuck around.. but remain convinced that cars are not iPods and that we’ll need all three energy storage devices to make electric cars work. So batteries, fuel cells and capacitors working together might be our most plausible future… But good luck to EEStor!

    Garry G

    Editor

    The Energy Roadmap.com

  • Aceware

    Somewhere in the charging circuit the voltage needs to be 3500V according to the patent. This might be done inside the EESU itself. Around here, you can have 220V 80A service wired right at the box on the house. To go higher, you have to get a special permit plus, the building zoning must allow it. Higher voltage service requires some special hoops to be jumped through but I wouldn’t think it would be a problem for a service station like setup. I personally wouldn’t want a 400V 200A drop at my house.

  • Tim Cleland

    “What’s odd about this is that, according to the patent, the volume of a 52 kWh EESU plus it’s “box, connectors and associated hardware” is 2.63 cubic feet. So, almost 2 cubic feet of the EESU is devoted to the “box, connectors and associated hardware”?”

    Maybe the extra volume is needed for heat dissipation?

  • Tim Cleland

    “What’s odd about this is that, according to the patent, the volume of a 52 kWh EESU plus it’s “box, connectors and associated hardware” is 2.63 cubic feet. So, almost 2 cubic feet of the EESU is devoted to the “box, connectors and associated hardware”?”

    Maybe the extra volume is needed for heat dissipation?

  • Tim Cleland

    “What’s odd about this is that, according to the patent, the volume of a 52 kWh EESU plus it’s “box, connectors and associated hardware” is 2.63 cubic feet. So, almost 2 cubic feet of the EESU is devoted to the “box, connectors and associated hardware”?”

    Maybe the extra volume is needed for heat dissipation?

  • Mike

    What’s odd about this is that, according to the patent, the volume of a 52 kWh EESU plus it’s “box, connectors and associated hardware” is 2.63 cubic feet. So, almost 2 cubic feet of the EESU is devoted to the “box, connectors and associated hardware”? I find this hard to believe.

    I think the rest of the volume is going to be connections and probably air cooling. If you can imagine the current required to charge this in 3 minutes, these will be truly massive connectors (0000 gauge to carry 300A at 3500V, or about 12mm diameter) that will have to divide / bifurcate all the way to the 31k components at which point they will be miniscule connections. That will be some interesting wire routing. It’s probably a very interesting package.

    K Bradshaw was mistaken. 25 kWH is only about 15 hours at 110V/15A, but 52kWH (the value mentioned in the article) would be about 32 minutes at 100% efficiency. He probably owes someone an apology. With that said, I think K. bradshaw should sue the pants off this website for publishing his email address when it clearly states it will NOT be published. I think he could win a massive settlement for such an unauthorized disclosure.

    Such treatment of an invited guest reminds me of the AGW crowd that can’t handle a little kindly criticism of theories that have been totally blown out of the water. Don’t make the same mistake they did.

  • Mike

    What’s odd about this is that, according to the patent, the volume of a 52 kWh EESU plus it’s “box, connectors and associated hardware” is 2.63 cubic feet. So, almost 2 cubic feet of the EESU is devoted to the “box, connectors and associated hardware”? I find this hard to believe.

    I think the rest of the volume is going to be connections and probably air cooling. If you can imagine the current required to charge this in 3 minutes, these will be truly massive connectors (0000 gauge to carry 300A at 3500V, or about 12mm diameter) that will have to divide / bifurcate all the way to the 31k components at which point they will be miniscule connections. That will be some interesting wire routing. It’s probably a very interesting package.

    K Bradshaw was mistaken. 25 kWH is only about 15 hours at 110V/15A, but 52kWH (the value mentioned in the article) would be about 32 minutes at 100% efficiency. He probably owes someone an apology. With that said, I think K. bradshaw should sue the pants off this website for publishing his email address when it clearly states it will NOT be published. I think he could win a massive settlement for such an unauthorized disclosure.

    Such treatment of an invited guest reminds me of the AGW crowd that can’t handle a little kindly criticism of theories that have been totally blown out of the water. Don’t make the same mistake they did.

  • Nick Chambers

    Mike,

    Kerry bradshaw is a troll who has been outed on many other sites many times before now for doing the exact same thing he’s done on this site with many other Gas 2.0 posts on countless occasions… usually with baselessly idiotic and mean intentions. He’s damn near a legend to anybody who blogs about the future of transportation and energy.

    You’re right in that I probably shouldn’t have posted his email. It’s been taken off his comment. It’s not something I’ve ever even contemplated before and for that I’m sorry. Rest assured I would not have done it if it weren’t for his past history.

    With that said, I think it’s a joke that you believe he could win a massive settlement and that you actually encourage him to seek damages. That’s the beauty of a litigious culture for you. It would be almost laughable if it weren’t so sad.

    “A little kindly criticism.” Ha. If you knew even half of Mr. bradshaw’s history on this site (and hundreds of others around the internet) you’d eat your words… unless, of course, you’re from the same organized group as Mr. bradshaw?

    I guarantee you that he spends so much time surfing for posts to criticize on the internet, that he will never return to this one. He hasn’t ever returned to any of the other 50+ posts he’s left comments on to rebut any criticism, so why would he start now? That, in and of itself, should be enough to clue you in on his intentions.

    I also encourage you to take a step back and realize that the easiest thing for me to do would be to delete all of his comments, but I’ve never done that. I believe in letting even the trolls spout their crap. It certainly entices lively conversation, even though it takes up an inordinate amount of my time.

  • Rif

    @Nick

    You are very right that the recharge time is actually limited by the power outlet of your house.

    In Europe the modern electrical cars use a standard outdoor 230V 16A plug = 3680W charge power. Blue plug 3 pins.

    Houses also have 400V system which is made as 3 phases of 230V 16A plug, the 400V is because the 3 phases are shifted. It is e.g. used for a stove and could also be practical for charging an electrical car. With a plug like that you get 230V * 3 * 16A = 11KW. Red plug 5 pins.

    Plug type 6, P+N+E and 3P+N+E

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_309

    With Tesla as the example, it has 53KWh battery, but you also have add the loss in the charge system in the Tesla, expect a 15% loss. Your plug actually have to deliver 62KWh.

    Charge time with:

    230V single phase: 17h

    400V plug: 5h40mn

    I can accept the 17h charge time because I most often would not need the full driving range. However it would be practical if future electrical cars can make use of the 400V system when available, and optionally use the 230V standard slow charge.

    In US you absolutely need to upgrade your house electrical system to at least the 220V power system to make home charging work. For things like this it would be practical if US used standards compatible to European standards.

    The alternative to use 120A through your cable is not a good idea because the cable would have to be thick like a water pipe and would heat up from internal resistance.

    Doei RIF

  • Rif

    @Nick

    You are very right that the recharge time is actually limited by the power outlet of your house.

    In Europe the modern electrical cars use a standard outdoor 230V 16A plug = 3680W charge power. Blue plug 3 pins.

    Houses also have 400V system which is made as 3 phases of 230V 16A plug, the 400V is because the 3 phases are shifted. It is e.g. used for a stove and could also be practical for charging an electrical car. With a plug like that you get 230V * 3 * 16A = 11KW. Red plug 5 pins.

    Plug type 6, P+N+E and 3P+N+E

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_309

    With Tesla as the example, it has 53KWh battery, but you also have add the loss in the charge system in the Tesla, expect a 15% loss. Your plug actually have to deliver 62KWh.

    Charge time with:

    230V single phase: 17h

    400V plug: 5h40mn

    I can accept the 17h charge time because I most often would not need the full driving range. However it would be practical if future electrical cars can make use of the 400V system when available, and optionally use the 230V standard slow charge.

    In US you absolutely need to upgrade your house electrical system to at least the 220V power system to make home charging work. For things like this it would be practical if US used standards compatible to European standards.

    The alternative to use 120A through your cable is not a good idea because the cable would have to be thick like a water pipe and would heat up from internal resistance.

    Doei RIF

  • Rif

    @Nick

    You are very right that the recharge time is actually limited by the power outlet of your house.

    In Europe the modern electrical cars use a standard outdoor 230V 16A plug = 3680W charge power. Blue plug 3 pins.

    Houses also have 400V system which is made as 3 phases of 230V 16A plug, the 400V is because the 3 phases are shifted. It is e.g. used for a stove and could also be practical for charging an electrical car. With a plug like that you get 230V * 3 * 16A = 11KW. Red plug 5 pins.

    Plug type 6, P+N+E and 3P+N+E

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_309

    With Tesla as the example, it has 53KWh battery, but you also have add the loss in the charge system in the Tesla, expect a 15% loss. Your plug actually have to deliver 62KWh.

    Charge time with:

    230V single phase: 17h

    400V plug: 5h40mn

    I can accept the 17h charge time because I most often would not need the full driving range. However it would be practical if future electrical cars can make use of the 400V system when available, and optionally use the 230V standard slow charge.

    In US you absolutely need to upgrade your house electrical system to at least the 220V power system to make home charging work. For things like this it would be practical if US used standards compatible to European standards.

    The alternative to use 120A through your cable is not a good idea because the cable would have to be thick like a water pipe and would heat up from internal resistance.

    Doei RIF

  • CalgaryNightHawk

    Where I live in Canada the average residential electrical Service is 120/240V 100A. That what your whole house could use. If As some one stated earlier you would need a 240V 120A service just to get the charge time down to 1.8 hours which means you’d have to more than double a whole bunch of things and rewire the house, too costly for a quick charge but for an overnight charge at home 240V/50 Amp is a possibility without much rework.

    We’re used to plugging our cars in a few months of they year anyway to keep the engines warm so most houses, apartment buildings and even some commercial parking lots have 120V plugs on the outside already.

    I could see that for the Quick charge you’d pull up to a Charge Stations, similar to a gas stations and pump in the electrons there.

    Hell so it cost $10.00 bucks to have some high school drop out plug in your car, still cheaper than gas.

  • CalgaryNightHawk

    Where I live in Canada the average residential electrical Service is 120/240V 100A. That what your whole house could use. If As some one stated earlier you would need a 240V 120A service just to get the charge time down to 1.8 hours which means you’d have to more than double a whole bunch of things and rewire the house, too costly for a quick charge but for an overnight charge at home 240V/50 Amp is a possibility without much rework.

    We’re used to plugging our cars in a few months of they year anyway to keep the engines warm so most houses, apartment buildings and even some commercial parking lots have 120V plugs on the outside already.

    I could see that for the Quick charge you’d pull up to a Charge Stations, similar to a gas stations and pump in the electrons there.

    Hell so it cost $10.00 bucks to have some high school drop out plug in your car, still cheaper than gas.

  • highway2dangerzone

    Please help me with this. Why are you people accepting the claims of Eestor as fact without question? Is it because you want to believe? I am looking for honest answers here – I simply do not understand why people buy into the Eestor pitch.

  • highway2dangerzone

    Please help me with this. Why are you people accepting the claims of Eestor as fact without question? Is it because you want to believe? I am looking for honest answers here – I simply do not understand why people buy into the Eestor pitch.

  • highway2dangerzone

    Please help me with this. Why are you people accepting the claims of Eestor as fact without question? Is it because you want to believe? I am looking for honest answers here – I simply do not understand why people buy into the Eestor pitch.

  • Matt Reed

    “Powerful enough outlet” is a bit of an understatement. 52 kilowatt hours / 3 minutes = ~ 1 megawatt. That’s a thousand microwave ovens running simultaneously. 240 volts @ 120 amps, which someone mentioned is the largest outlet you can reasonably obtain, is only 28 kilowatts. So yeah, it can charge quickly, but that’s only a theoretical kind of thing. I can’t imagine that even special gas stations for charging capacitors could do it in thirty minutes, let alone 3. But really cool nonetheless. I think it’s more of a “plug it in overnight after I get home” sort of thing than “plug it in on the way to work while I buy a coffee” sort of thing.

  • Matt Reed

    “Powerful enough outlet” is a bit of an understatement. 52 kilowatt hours / 3 minutes = ~ 1 megawatt. That’s a thousand microwave ovens running simultaneously. 240 volts @ 120 amps, which someone mentioned is the largest outlet you can reasonably obtain, is only 28 kilowatts. So yeah, it can charge quickly, but that’s only a theoretical kind of thing. I can’t imagine that even special gas stations for charging capacitors could do it in thirty minutes, let alone 3. But really cool nonetheless. I think it’s more of a “plug it in overnight after I get home” sort of thing than “plug it in on the way to work while I buy a coffee” sort of thing.

  • CBDunkerson

    I think alot of people believe EEStor because if they don’t deliver as promised Lockheed Martin WILL ruin them. Seriously, teeny tiny company gets millions of dollars from gigando huge company to develop product and it turns out the whole thing is a fraud? Teeny tiny company gets squished.

    As to charge time issues: while the 280 lb unit weight is fairly hefty I could see people pre-charging these and swapping them out. If you drive less than 200 miles per day you could switch back and forth between two units… one in the car and the other charging for the next day. Have an extra long trip planned? Charge up four extras the week before and put them in the trunk. They’re heavy, but not very big.

    Obviously, putting high power charging stations in homes and existing gas stations would also make devices with these specs more useful, but even with standard outlets they’d be viable by having an extra unit or units and swapping them. Depending on how the infrastructure develops EEStor could presumably develop lighter and/or heavier models… if high powered chargers start to become commonplace then an ultracapacitor with three times the storage would probably allow some economies of scale and come in at less than three times the weight, not swappable but can be recharged in minutes every 800 miles or so. Conversely, several smaller ultracapacitors could probably be swapped more easily than one big one.

    EEStor has already talked about wanting to adapt the underlying technology to replace rechargeable batteries for small electronic devices, so the specs for this one particular device in the patent needn’t be set in stone.

  • CBDunkerson

    I think alot of people believe EEStor because if they don’t deliver as promised Lockheed Martin WILL ruin them. Seriously, teeny tiny company gets millions of dollars from gigando huge company to develop product and it turns out the whole thing is a fraud? Teeny tiny company gets squished.

    As to charge time issues: while the 280 lb unit weight is fairly hefty I could see people pre-charging these and swapping them out. If you drive less than 200 miles per day you could switch back and forth between two units… one in the car and the other charging for the next day. Have an extra long trip planned? Charge up four extras the week before and put them in the trunk. They’re heavy, but not very big.

    Obviously, putting high power charging stations in homes and existing gas stations would also make devices with these specs more useful, but even with standard outlets they’d be viable by having an extra unit or units and swapping them. Depending on how the infrastructure develops EEStor could presumably develop lighter and/or heavier models… if high powered chargers start to become commonplace then an ultracapacitor with three times the storage would probably allow some economies of scale and come in at less than three times the weight, not swappable but can be recharged in minutes every 800 miles or so. Conversely, several smaller ultracapacitors could probably be swapped more easily than one big one.

    EEStor has already talked about wanting to adapt the underlying technology to replace rechargeable batteries for small electronic devices, so the specs for this one particular device in the patent needn’t be set in stone.

  • CBDunkerson

    I think alot of people believe EEStor because if they don’t deliver as promised Lockheed Martin WILL ruin them. Seriously, teeny tiny company gets millions of dollars from gigando huge company to develop product and it turns out the whole thing is a fraud? Teeny tiny company gets squished.

    As to charge time issues: while the 280 lb unit weight is fairly hefty I could see people pre-charging these and swapping them out. If you drive less than 200 miles per day you could switch back and forth between two units… one in the car and the other charging for the next day. Have an extra long trip planned? Charge up four extras the week before and put them in the trunk. They’re heavy, but not very big.

    Obviously, putting high power charging stations in homes and existing gas stations would also make devices with these specs more useful, but even with standard outlets they’d be viable by having an extra unit or units and swapping them. Depending on how the infrastructure develops EEStor could presumably develop lighter and/or heavier models… if high powered chargers start to become commonplace then an ultracapacitor with three times the storage would probably allow some economies of scale and come in at less than three times the weight, not swappable but can be recharged in minutes every 800 miles or so. Conversely, several smaller ultracapacitors could probably be swapped more easily than one big one.

    EEStor has already talked about wanting to adapt the underlying technology to replace rechargeable batteries for small electronic devices, so the specs for this one particular device in the patent needn’t be set in stone.

  • Dave Dalrymple

    highway2dangerzone…

    here’s my honest answer – first off, I’m not seeing a whole lot of people here accepting the claims of Eestor as fact, they are merely discussing the hypotheticals of Eestors claims – nothing wrong with that. They are not naive minds being fooled by Eestor, they are intelligent and curious minds exploring the hypothetical possibilities and limitations of this technology. Secondly, faith in ideas like this, and sometimes even blind faith, has been a major driver of technological innovation in our history…a guy like Tesla wouldn’t have done anything without a little blind faith, and a lot of now successful companies wouldn’t be so without the startup capital provided people who posessed…faith…so, even if people here were exhibiting this (which they’re not), what’s the big deal?

  • Dave Dalrymple

    highway2dangerzone…

    here’s my honest answer – first off, I’m not seeing a whole lot of people here accepting the claims of Eestor as fact, they are merely discussing the hypotheticals of Eestors claims – nothing wrong with that. They are not naive minds being fooled by Eestor, they are intelligent and curious minds exploring the hypothetical possibilities and limitations of this technology. Secondly, faith in ideas like this, and sometimes even blind faith, has been a major driver of technological innovation in our history…a guy like Tesla wouldn’t have done anything without a little blind faith, and a lot of now successful companies wouldn’t be so without the startup capital provided people who posessed…faith…so, even if people here were exhibiting this (which they’re not), what’s the big deal?

  • Dave Dalrymple

    highway2dangerzone…

    here’s my honest answer – first off, I’m not seeing a whole lot of people here accepting the claims of Eestor as fact, they are merely discussing the hypotheticals of Eestors claims – nothing wrong with that. They are not naive minds being fooled by Eestor, they are intelligent and curious minds exploring the hypothetical possibilities and limitations of this technology. Secondly, faith in ideas like this, and sometimes even blind faith, has been a major driver of technological innovation in our history…a guy like Tesla wouldn’t have done anything without a little blind faith, and a lot of now successful companies wouldn’t be so without the startup capital provided people who posessed…faith…so, even if people here were exhibiting this (which they’re not), what’s the big deal?

  • Michael

    Like most of us, I have major doubts about Eestor’s claims.

    However…

    If their product ever gets produced, even if it only has half the energy density they claim for it, will still be a game changer. No batteries? No chemical reactions? No power loss in storage? No effect due to temperature?

    I won’t do these calculations, but for those who do (and like squabbling over figures), I see no issue with the apparent energy density disparity. IF this thing works, it will be like containing a lightning bolt in a box. Extra space for extra insulation.

    I’m surprised Tesla has an at-home charging station. Lithium ion batteries can’t take a lot of juice (or let a lot loose) without producing lots of heat. Remember those laptop fires? I should think the Tesla wouldn’t be able to take all the juice than I can push through a 220v, thirty amp circuit 6600Kwh), which is still a lot of juice to push into a battery.

    A capacitor will require a charging station, another capacitor that can hold twice the charge of the mobile one (the charging capacitor could also be mobile, once charged). Basically, the two capacitors would be jumpered together (with one honking fat harness) and linked for the couple of minutes it would take for the capacitor charges to equilibrate.

    A capacitor equipped car should also be able to supply a jump-charge to another like vehicle, assuming portable harnesses are developed, which means that stranded motorists may not need to wait for a specially-equipped charging truck (which other folks will doubtless start developing if this technology hits the street).

    But it’s the temperature thing that I like. I live in a cold climate, and a battery that might get 100 miles on a charge in warm climes might only get thirty (or less) at zero degrees. The capacitor doesn’t rely on chemistry, hence no slowing reactions to hamper cold climate operation.

    I’m highly skeptical, but there are many reasons why I sure hope this works.

  • Michael

    Like most of us, I have major doubts about Eestor’s claims.

    However…

    If their product ever gets produced, even if it only has half the energy density they claim for it, will still be a game changer. No batteries? No chemical reactions? No power loss in storage? No effect due to temperature?

    I won’t do these calculations, but for those who do (and like squabbling over figures), I see no issue with the apparent energy density disparity. IF this thing works, it will be like containing a lightning bolt in a box. Extra space for extra insulation.

    I’m surprised Tesla has an at-home charging station. Lithium ion batteries can’t take a lot of juice (or let a lot loose) without producing lots of heat. Remember those laptop fires? I should think the Tesla wouldn’t be able to take all the juice than I can push through a 220v, thirty amp circuit 6600Kwh), which is still a lot of juice to push into a battery.

    A capacitor will require a charging station, another capacitor that can hold twice the charge of the mobile one (the charging capacitor could also be mobile, once charged). Basically, the two capacitors would be jumpered together (with one honking fat harness) and linked for the couple of minutes it would take for the capacitor charges to equilibrate.

    A capacitor equipped car should also be able to supply a jump-charge to another like vehicle, assuming portable harnesses are developed, which means that stranded motorists may not need to wait for a specially-equipped charging truck (which other folks will doubtless start developing if this technology hits the street).

    But it’s the temperature thing that I like. I live in a cold climate, and a battery that might get 100 miles on a charge in warm climes might only get thirty (or less) at zero degrees. The capacitor doesn’t rely on chemistry, hence no slowing reactions to hamper cold climate operation.

    I’m highly skeptical, but there are many reasons why I sure hope this works.

  • Michael

    Like most of us, I have major doubts about Eestor’s claims.

    However…

    If their product ever gets produced, even if it only has half the energy density they claim for it, will still be a game changer. No batteries? No chemical reactions? No power loss in storage? No effect due to temperature?

    I won’t do these calculations, but for those who do (and like squabbling over figures), I see no issue with the apparent energy density disparity. IF this thing works, it will be like containing a lightning bolt in a box. Extra space for extra insulation.

    I’m surprised Tesla has an at-home charging station. Lithium ion batteries can’t take a lot of juice (or let a lot loose) without producing lots of heat. Remember those laptop fires? I should think the Tesla wouldn’t be able to take all the juice than I can push through a 220v, thirty amp circuit 6600Kwh), which is still a lot of juice to push into a battery.

    A capacitor will require a charging station, another capacitor that can hold twice the charge of the mobile one (the charging capacitor could also be mobile, once charged). Basically, the two capacitors would be jumpered together (with one honking fat harness) and linked for the couple of minutes it would take for the capacitor charges to equilibrate.

    A capacitor equipped car should also be able to supply a jump-charge to another like vehicle, assuming portable harnesses are developed, which means that stranded motorists may not need to wait for a specially-equipped charging truck (which other folks will doubtless start developing if this technology hits the street).

    But it’s the temperature thing that I like. I live in a cold climate, and a battery that might get 100 miles on a charge in warm climes might only get thirty (or less) at zero degrees. The capacitor doesn’t rely on chemistry, hence no slowing reactions to hamper cold climate operation.

    I’m highly skeptical, but there are many reasons why I sure hope this works.

  • Rob

    Obviously, you would have an ultracapacitor at home on a trickle charge (solar panels sound good). When you arrive at home, you can recharge from the Ultracapacitor to the Ultracapacitor in 3-5 minutes. In a smart world, you could have a small connection in your driveway and a card reader for debit cards, charge people for the recharge from your home and make a few extra bucks a month being the local energy station.

  • Rob

    Obviously, you would have an ultracapacitor at home on a trickle charge (solar panels sound good). When you arrive at home, you can recharge from the Ultracapacitor to the Ultracapacitor in 3-5 minutes. In a smart world, you could have a small connection in your driveway and a card reader for debit cards, charge people for the recharge from your home and make a few extra bucks a month being the local energy station.

  • Rob

    Obviously, you would have an ultracapacitor at home on a trickle charge (solar panels sound good). When you arrive at home, you can recharge from the Ultracapacitor to the Ultracapacitor in 3-5 minutes. In a smart world, you could have a small connection in your driveway and a card reader for debit cards, charge people for the recharge from your home and make a few extra bucks a month being the local energy station.

  • http://www.longboardcapital.com Brett Conrad

    So, for those of you who are believers, buy Zenn Stock. For those of you who are skeptical, short the stock. In either case you can make money if you believe in your case enough.

    Me? I was long the stock, but sold out for a decent profit. I think the stock will continue its short term rise here, and possibly hit $3 or $4 if convincing enough news releases come out. I am not sure how patient investors will be, but EEstor is now 1 year past its original debut deadline (according to Zenn). I think investors have about another 12 months of good will left in them. After that, if EEstor cannot produce a prototype, the game will be over and the short sellers will win. If a prototype is made and publicly demonstrated, the stock will be up at $15.00.

  • http://www.longboardcapital.com Brett Conrad

    So, for those of you who are believers, buy Zenn Stock. For those of you who are skeptical, short the stock. In either case you can make money if you believe in your case enough.

    Me? I was long the stock, but sold out for a decent profit. I think the stock will continue its short term rise here, and possibly hit $3 or $4 if convincing enough news releases come out. I am not sure how patient investors will be, but EEstor is now 1 year past its original debut deadline (according to Zenn). I think investors have about another 12 months of good will left in them. After that, if EEstor cannot produce a prototype, the game will be over and the short sellers will win. If a prototype is made and publicly demonstrated, the stock will be up at $15.00.

  • http://www.longboardcapital.com Brett Conrad

    So, for those of you who are believers, buy Zenn Stock. For those of you who are skeptical, short the stock. In either case you can make money if you believe in your case enough.

    Me? I was long the stock, but sold out for a decent profit. I think the stock will continue its short term rise here, and possibly hit $3 or $4 if convincing enough news releases come out. I am not sure how patient investors will be, but EEstor is now 1 year past its original debut deadline (according to Zenn). I think investors have about another 12 months of good will left in them. After that, if EEstor cannot produce a prototype, the game will be over and the short sellers will win. If a prototype is made and publicly demonstrated, the stock will be up at $15.00.

  • Orion

    “What’s odd about this is that, according to the patent, the volume of a 52 kWh EESU plus its “box, connectors and associated hardware” is 2.63 cubic feet. So, almost 2 cubic feet of the EESU is devoted to the “box, connectors and associated hardware”? I find this hard to believe. ”

    No, that’s probably about right. The microprocessor in your PC is about the size of the nail on your little finger but the chip package is 2″ x 2″ or so – not to mention the mainboard, memory, hard drive, and chassis. A battery is compact because everything happen on the molecular scale. Ultracapacitors are made up of tens of thousands of discrete elements.

  • Orion

    “What’s odd about this is that, according to the patent, the volume of a 52 kWh EESU plus its “box, connectors and associated hardware” is 2.63 cubic feet. So, almost 2 cubic feet of the EESU is devoted to the “box, connectors and associated hardware”? I find this hard to believe. ”

    No, that’s probably about right. The microprocessor in your PC is about the size of the nail on your little finger but the chip package is 2″ x 2″ or so – not to mention the mainboard, memory, hard drive, and chassis. A battery is compact because everything happen on the molecular scale. Ultracapacitors are made up of tens of thousands of discrete elements.

  • Orion

    “What’s odd about this is that, according to the patent, the volume of a 52 kWh EESU plus its “box, connectors and associated hardware” is 2.63 cubic feet. So, almost 2 cubic feet of the EESU is devoted to the “box, connectors and associated hardware”? I find this hard to believe. ”

    No, that’s probably about right. The microprocessor in your PC is about the size of the nail on your little finger but the chip package is 2″ x 2″ or so – not to mention the mainboard, memory, hard drive, and chassis. A battery is compact because everything happen on the molecular scale. Ultracapacitors are made up of tens of thousands of discrete elements.

  • Nick Balandiat

    Isn’t 220V what we have for larger appliances like electric stoves and electric clothes dryers?

    Whenever we do get some sort of electric car or plug-in hybrid you would want both outlets on the car.

    Certainly in your house you would want the 220V set up, 3 or 4 hours isn’t much to ask. And if you are driving to grandmas you can recharge, maybe not fully, but a healthy enough percentage to get home.

    And lets not forget the really smart folks with shops like restaurants on the highway when they install HIGHSPEED-High power lines to recharge even faster. You’ll enjoy a short meal and get your car filled as you load up on yummy food. Electricity is cheap while prepared food is where you make your money!

  • Nick Balandiat

    Isn’t 220V what we have for larger appliances like electric stoves and electric clothes dryers?

    Whenever we do get some sort of electric car or plug-in hybrid you would want both outlets on the car.

    Certainly in your house you would want the 220V set up, 3 or 4 hours isn’t much to ask. And if you are driving to grandmas you can recharge, maybe not fully, but a healthy enough percentage to get home.

    And lets not forget the really smart folks with shops like restaurants on the highway when they install HIGHSPEED-High power lines to recharge even faster. You’ll enjoy a short meal and get your car filled as you load up on yummy food. Electricity is cheap while prepared food is where you make your money!

  • Nick Balandiat

    Isn’t 220V what we have for larger appliances like electric stoves and electric clothes dryers?

    Whenever we do get some sort of electric car or plug-in hybrid you would want both outlets on the car.

    Certainly in your house you would want the 220V set up, 3 or 4 hours isn’t much to ask. And if you are driving to grandmas you can recharge, maybe not fully, but a healthy enough percentage to get home.

    And lets not forget the really smart folks with shops like restaurants on the highway when they install HIGHSPEED-High power lines to recharge even faster. You’ll enjoy a short meal and get your car filled as you load up on yummy food. Electricity is cheap while prepared food is where you make your money!

  • sal

    This is all bullshit…sorry folks. If they could have done it it would have been done a long time ago. Same with all the “fusion” reactors. If you can’t make a small demo model, you can’t make a gigantic billion dollar model work. Think about it.

  • sal

    This is all bullshit…sorry folks. If they could have done it it would have been done a long time ago. Same with all the “fusion” reactors. If you can’t make a small demo model, you can’t make a gigantic billion dollar model work. Think about it.

  • sal

    This is all bullshit…sorry folks. If they could have done it it would have been done a long time ago. Same with all the “fusion” reactors. If you can’t make a small demo model, you can’t make a gigantic billion dollar model work. Think about it.

  • advill

    EEstor is ready to next phase that is volume production, they still are waiting for other patents app.

    a 440V line (common in industry) could do the trick, problem is the way the charge is handle into the box, as any high energy retention device the way of administering in and out the flow is complex. Valence batteries has a sophisticated firmware for this and A123 says the will have this problem solved for GM Volt…(which I doubt).

    EEstor is going to transform the world.

  • advill

    EEstor is ready to next phase that is volume production, they still are waiting for other patents app.

    a 440V line (common in industry) could do the trick, problem is the way the charge is handle into the box, as any high energy retention device the way of administering in and out the flow is complex. Valence batteries has a sophisticated firmware for this and A123 says the will have this problem solved for GM Volt…(which I doubt).

    EEstor is going to transform the world.

  • advill

    EEstor is ready to next phase that is volume production, they still are waiting for other patents app.

    a 440V line (common in industry) could do the trick, problem is the way the charge is handle into the box, as any high energy retention device the way of administering in and out the flow is complex. Valence batteries has a sophisticated firmware for this and A123 says the will have this problem solved for GM Volt…(which I doubt).

    EEstor is going to transform the world.

  • whatadummy

    Sal, C’mon man, do you have any idea how long it took to invent the light bulb, the telephone, the tv??? In your world the world is probably still flat.

  • whatadummy

    Sal, C’mon man, do you have any idea how long it took to invent the light bulb, the telephone, the tv??? In your world the world is probably still flat.

  • whatadummy

    Sal, C’mon man, do you have any idea how long it took to invent the light bulb, the telephone, the tv??? In your world the world is probably still flat.

  • Peter

    A few facts to counter some of the astroturfing being done here.

    1. EEStor did meet at least two milestones this year. The most important one was related to the purity of pre-cursor materials and was independently certified in October.

    2. Lockheed Martin have just patented a combat body vest using EEStor technology and mention EEStor specifically in that patent.

    3. Several interviews and articles have already explained that the ideal charging at home arrangement would be a static EESU in your home charging 24/7 off the mains or solar/wind etc. You then use the static EESU to charge the one in your car. Easy.

  • Peter

    A few facts to counter some of the astroturfing being done here.

    1. EEStor did meet at least two milestones this year. The most important one was related to the purity of pre-cursor materials and was independently certified in October.

    2. Lockheed Martin have just patented a combat body vest using EEStor technology and mention EEStor specifically in that patent.

    3. Several interviews and articles have already explained that the ideal charging at home arrangement would be a static EESU in your home charging 24/7 off the mains or solar/wind etc. You then use the static EESU to charge the one in your car. Easy.

  • Peter

    A few facts to counter some of the astroturfing being done here.

    1. EEStor did meet at least two milestones this year. The most important one was related to the purity of pre-cursor materials and was independently certified in October.

    2. Lockheed Martin have just patented a combat body vest using EEStor technology and mention EEStor specifically in that patent.

    3. Several interviews and articles have already explained that the ideal charging at home arrangement would be a static EESU in your home charging 24/7 off the mains or solar/wind etc. You then use the static EESU to charge the one in your car. Easy.

  • EEman

    As far as home charging goes…… a second cap-pack could be used to store energy from the long charge at night at low peak demands at lower costs and then dumped quickly into the Cap-pack in the car at any time.

    The home cap-pack could also be used to balance peak-demands by selling power back to the utilities.

    There are soooooooooooo many uses for such a storage device.

    Time will reveal how practical this invention will be for all the possible applications. Thank God someone is working on something like this…. Think about how many more ideas and dreams could be developed if engineers and backyard scientists were supported financially and people gave the boot to oil. A few billion dollars would go along way toward stablizing out power needs.

  • EEman

    As far as home charging goes…… a second cap-pack could be used to store energy from the long charge at night at low peak demands at lower costs and then dumped quickly into the Cap-pack in the car at any time.

    The home cap-pack could also be used to balance peak-demands by selling power back to the utilities.

    There are soooooooooooo many uses for such a storage device.

    Time will reveal how practical this invention will be for all the possible applications. Thank God someone is working on something like this…. Think about how many more ideas and dreams could be developed if engineers and backyard scientists were supported financially and people gave the boot to oil. A few billion dollars would go along way toward stablizing out power needs.

  • EEman

    As far as home charging goes…… a second cap-pack could be used to store energy from the long charge at night at low peak demands at lower costs and then dumped quickly into the Cap-pack in the car at any time.

    The home cap-pack could also be used to balance peak-demands by selling power back to the utilities.

    There are soooooooooooo many uses for such a storage device.

    Time will reveal how practical this invention will be for all the possible applications. Thank God someone is working on something like this…. Think about how many more ideas and dreams could be developed if engineers and backyard scientists were supported financially and people gave the boot to oil. A few billion dollars would go along way toward stablizing out power needs.

  • http://Iwish... Geoff

    @ nick chambers I have to answer your question!

    You’d need a 2nd or 2 additional identical capacitor on a full day trickle charge! Think about it! You have one capacitor thats, as you say, on perhaps a 220/20 outlet (now remember thats AC, cant charge a cap on AC so you need a rectifier and I’d say your looking at 80% efficiency at best, so 20% overhead) charging all day, and when you get your car home, you simply jump one capacitor to the other and charge your cars capacitor at 3500V or whatevers best! now arguably at that voltage you would need some significant safety equipment, but it could be done. And as I understand it (1st year electrical engineering student) the return would only be 50% if you had two capacitors as you would end up seeing equal voltages across both the di-electrics (but then I’m confused… the circuit i built in my head is too simple…). If you had 2 or 3 capacitors at home on a trickle charge, then you would see 66% or 75% of the charge across the capacitor you want to charge up.

    Again though, a 35F capacitor at 5000V (this is according to the patent filed by these guys) is a dangerous amount of electricity. It could easily arc across a good deal of air and zap something that even resembles a ground. Getting this thing consumer friendly isn’t going to be easy. Which ties into the “associated hardware” part of your story. The amount of charge this capacitor is going to hold on a plate is easily enough to arc through air (~2000V/cm), so the thing has to be insulated, a very powerful potentiometer must keep the RC time constant (how long it takes for the cap to discharge) very high so that when plugged into more normal circuits its not going to send 100A down a channel designed for 10mA.

    The reason these caps are so important is the huge breakdown voltage. Traditional caps break down at say 30 or 40V, but these ones break down at 5000V! The energy stored by a cap is = (Charge * Voltage^2)/2, where charge is in coulombs (btw 1 coulomb = 6.2e18 electrons).

    These new barium-titanium capacitors are going to revolutionize electronics as we know them.

    Fusion reactor test projects require banks and banks of millions of dollars worth of capacitors! Using these things you can bring that 7 figure cost value down to a 5 figure one! the US Navy contracted (the name escapes me) to build a railgun for their swath boats (as in “hurl this projectile 20 miles and oh btw we need it to hit this teaspoon” the answer is electrostatics). The term “clean up that signal” is going to take on a whole new meaning in communications. I mean on a standard old telephone way more frequencies are possible because of this things use as a band-pass filter (assuming its not polarized :S… is it polarized?). If we equate a telephone line today to a standard FM radio, with range of 80Mhz to 110MHz, using one of these caps in conjunction with an inductor that could keep up, you could get the radio up to say 200Mhz from 80Mhz. The possibilities are phenomenal.

    Good stuff.

  • George Countryman

    I have been following this Eestor development closely and especially this discussion about charge time. There seems to me to be a presumption that each and every charging of this device will be from dead nuts dry.

    I suspect that this just won’t be the case as very few of us drive 200+ miles per day.

    If we just plug the car in every night or even every day when it is at our homes then it seems to me that there will rarely be an issue of running out of juice.

    I have absolutely no electrical background or knowledge but it seems to me that I could simply keep the beast plugged in when I am not driving it and everything would work out fine and maybe even not need a high voltage connection at work. As I understand the hypercapacitor concept, it isn’t like they have a memory like old NiCad rechargeables do they?

  • George Countryman

    I have been following this Eestor development closely and especially this discussion about charge time. There seems to me to be a presumption that each and every charging of this device will be from dead nuts dry.

    I suspect that this just won’t be the case as very few of us drive 200+ miles per day.

    If we just plug the car in every night or even every day when it is at our homes then it seems to me that there will rarely be an issue of running out of juice.

    I have absolutely no electrical background or knowledge but it seems to me that I could simply keep the beast plugged in when I am not driving it and everything would work out fine and maybe even not need a high voltage connection at work. As I understand the hypercapacitor concept, it isn’t like they have a memory like old NiCad rechargeables do they?

  • ZeMadeiran

    Geoff, in your post you mention 200mhz down a telephone line just by adding one of these caps. Would the case then be that you would have double the frequency allowing a wider operational frequency for ADSL?

    How would this effect distance and bandwidth?

    If these caps do eventually pan out, a huge market would as you point out lie with the telecoms industry which in turn would give us higher bandwidth!

    Any other ideas on real world alternative uses for the new ultra caps would be welcomed.

    Regards

  • ZeMadeiran

    Geoff, in your post you mention 200mhz down a telephone line just by adding one of these caps. Would the case then be that you would have double the frequency allowing a wider operational frequency for ADSL?

    How would this effect distance and bandwidth?

    If these caps do eventually pan out, a huge market would as you point out lie with the telecoms industry which in turn would give us higher bandwidth!

    Any other ideas on real world alternative uses for the new ultra caps would be welcomed.

    Regards

  • ZeMadeiran

    Geoff, in your post you mention 200mhz down a telephone line just by adding one of these caps. Would the case then be that you would have double the frequency allowing a wider operational frequency for ADSL?

    How would this effect distance and bandwidth?

    If these caps do eventually pan out, a huge market would as you point out lie with the telecoms industry which in turn would give us higher bandwidth!

    Any other ideas on real world alternative uses for the new ultra caps would be welcomed.

    Regards

  • Jonathan Goldman

    I read through the EEstor patent and I have several questions:

    1) This patent has issued, but the prior patent # (7,033,406) comes up only as an application on Google patents. Since it has a #, I must assume it has issued. If not…the new one is dependent on the claim of the one filed in 2006.

    2) The manufacturing process describe using HIP to make a void-free material. Where does all the surface area go needed to store the boat-load of electrons if all particle are sintered to a void-free condition?

    3) The variation in permittivity data is remarkably tight even for lab results. At 85C and 5000V the variation is only 47 out of 19,818. This is a variation of only 0.24%…extremely small.

    4) When thinking about the manufacturability, I note that however long or short each of the process steps, the longest is the residence time in the HIP machine. These are very large, heavy pieces of equipment. These are large forgings that must tolerate 100 atmospheres of pressure. The larger the diameter of the chamber the thicker the ribbing must be to accommodate the load. I have some experience because we had looked at this equipment when looking at how ceramic ballistic armor is made today. The restricted size (12-18″ diam) and lead times (12 to 18 months) for this equipment leads me to question what the ultimate manufacturing throughput can be for this process. The volume of the chamber will ultimately set the hourly throughput.

    Just curious.

  • Jonathan Goldman

    I read through the EEstor patent and I have several questions:

    1) This patent has issued, but the prior patent # (7,033,406) comes up only as an application on Google patents. Since it has a #, I must assume it has issued. If not…the new one is dependent on the claim of the one filed in 2006.

    2) The manufacturing process describe using HIP to make a void-free material. Where does all the surface area go needed to store the boat-load of electrons if all particle are sintered to a void-free condition?

    3) The variation in permittivity data is remarkably tight even for lab results. At 85C and 5000V the variation is only 47 out of 19,818. This is a variation of only 0.24%…extremely small.

    4) When thinking about the manufacturability, I note that however long or short each of the process steps, the longest is the residence time in the HIP machine. These are very large, heavy pieces of equipment. These are large forgings that must tolerate 100 atmospheres of pressure. The larger the diameter of the chamber the thicker the ribbing must be to accommodate the load. I have some experience because we had looked at this equipment when looking at how ceramic ballistic armor is made today. The restricted size (12-18″ diam) and lead times (12 to 18 months) for this equipment leads me to question what the ultimate manufacturing throughput can be for this process. The volume of the chamber will ultimately set the hourly throughput.

    Just curious.

  • Jonathan Goldman

    I read through the EEstor patent and I have several questions:

    1) This patent has issued, but the prior patent # (7,033,406) comes up only as an application on Google patents. Since it has a #, I must assume it has issued. If not…the new one is dependent on the claim of the one filed in 2006.

    2) The manufacturing process describe using HIP to make a void-free material. Where does all the surface area go needed to store the boat-load of electrons if all particle are sintered to a void-free condition?

    3) The variation in permittivity data is remarkably tight even for lab results. At 85C and 5000V the variation is only 47 out of 19,818. This is a variation of only 0.24%…extremely small.

    4) When thinking about the manufacturability, I note that however long or short each of the process steps, the longest is the residence time in the HIP machine. These are very large, heavy pieces of equipment. These are large forgings that must tolerate 100 atmospheres of pressure. The larger the diameter of the chamber the thicker the ribbing must be to accommodate the load. I have some experience because we had looked at this equipment when looking at how ceramic ballistic armor is made today. The restricted size (12-18″ diam) and lead times (12 to 18 months) for this equipment leads me to question what the ultimate manufacturing throughput can be for this process. The volume of the chamber will ultimately set the hourly throughput.

    Just curious.

  • Jonathan Goldman

    Sorry:

    5) They talk about 3500V, but the largest IGBTs used to do power switching are about 1500V (up from 800V when I last checked 5 years ago – see Semikron). Are there even power switching transistors that can handle the voltage?

  • Jonathan Goldman

    Sorry:

    5) They talk about 3500V, but the largest IGBTs used to do power switching are about 1500V (up from 800V when I last checked 5 years ago – see Semikron). Are there even power switching transistors that can handle the voltage?

  • Geoff

    Many long range telecommunication technologies rely on band-pass and band-stop filters. These filters are just a capacitor with an inductor in a specific configuration. When you hit a harmonic AC frequency, where the capacitive reactance (the resistance of the capacitor to an AC signal) matches inductive reactance (resistance of inductor to AC), a whole bunch of wierd things happen. This is the basis for carrying multiple signals in the same space. The capacitive reactance is = 1/(2pifC) where C is the capacity of the capacitor. These Ultra Capacitors have insane ratings of up to 35 or even 40 Farads. Now I havnt seen one, but assuming the technology scales and you can get a 5 or 10 Farad capacitor, and assuming we can make it safe, You could, to my knowledge, extend the frequency range (and thus the bandwidth) of current AC signal based technologies significantly.

  • Geoff

    Many long range telecommunication technologies rely on band-pass and band-stop filters. These filters are just a capacitor with an inductor in a specific configuration. When you hit a harmonic AC frequency, where the capacitive reactance (the resistance of the capacitor to an AC signal) matches inductive reactance (resistance of inductor to AC), a whole bunch of wierd things happen. This is the basis for carrying multiple signals in the same space. The capacitive reactance is = 1/(2pifC) where C is the capacity of the capacitor. These Ultra Capacitors have insane ratings of up to 35 or even 40 Farads. Now I havnt seen one, but assuming the technology scales and you can get a 5 or 10 Farad capacitor, and assuming we can make it safe, You could, to my knowledge, extend the frequency range (and thus the bandwidth) of current AC signal based technologies significantly.

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  • Garth L Merrill

    Well it does sound so good I pray it is real and soon. The cost of them is a big item for having one or two as a quick charging unit.

    As George Countryman said above, none will discharged that much if plugged in every night so would not take so long.

    Also like EEStor, P2solor is a ray of hope with their 3000 watt solar panel (see patent at http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220070204899%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20070204899&RS=DN/20070204899 ), one would fit nicely on the roof of an EV/boat/aircraft and will charge while not in use and help reduce drain when in use.

    That is a combination that will bring us a true blessing(a 5′ X 5′ double panel would run a smaller home) and with using the EEStor units in the home system for dark times, they could charge each other when you plug in the cars etc, and can be swapped around for long auto trips, high home energy use times (very hot/cold out) etc.

    The implications and uses are endless and open a whole world of near “0” maintenance and operating costs, compared to current technologies now in use (fossil fuels.)

  • Garth L Merrill

    Well it does sound so good I pray it is real and soon. The cost of them is a big item for having one or two as a quick charging unit.

    As George Countryman said above, none will discharged that much if plugged in every night so would not take so long.

    Also like EEStor, P2solor is a ray of hope with their 3000 watt solar panel (see patent at http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220070204899%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20070204899&RS=DN/20070204899 ), one would fit nicely on the roof of an EV/boat/aircraft and will charge while not in use and help reduce drain when in use.

    That is a combination that will bring us a true blessing(a 5′ X 5′ double panel would run a smaller home) and with using the EEStor units in the home system for dark times, they could charge each other when you plug in the cars etc, and can be swapped around for long auto trips, high home energy use times (very hot/cold out) etc.

    The implications and uses are endless and open a whole world of near “0” maintenance and operating costs, compared to current technologies now in use (fossil fuels.)

  • Garth L Merrill

    Well it does sound so good I pray it is real and soon. The cost of them is a big item for having one or two as a quick charging unit.

    As George Countryman said above, none will discharged that much if plugged in every night so would not take so long.

    Also like EEStor, P2solor is a ray of hope with their 3000 watt solar panel (see patent at http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220070204899%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20070204899&RS=DN/20070204899 ), one would fit nicely on the roof of an EV/boat/aircraft and will charge while not in use and help reduce drain when in use.

    That is a combination that will bring us a true blessing(a 5′ X 5′ double panel would run a smaller home) and with using the EEStor units in the home system for dark times, they could charge each other when you plug in the cars etc, and can be swapped around for long auto trips, high home energy use times (very hot/cold out) etc.

    The implications and uses are endless and open a whole world of near “0” maintenance and operating costs, compared to current technologies now in use (fossil fuels.)

  • Petrik_CZ

    It is presumed that every user of EESU in car will have another EESU at home, charging it at night at low amps and then “only” transfers stored energy to car. At high voltage, it should be possible in couple of minutes.

  • Petrik_CZ

    It is presumed that every user of EESU in car will have another EESU at home, charging it at night at low amps and then “only” transfers stored energy to car. At high voltage, it should be possible in couple of minutes.

  • William

    The 5 minute charge issue:

    From what I’ve heard from Ian Clifford at Zenn, the five minute charge is capable with a special charging station. Using a 110v wall plug, the eEstor takes 2 hours on a dead battery, and 1 hour using a 220v plug.

    The point about the 5 minute charge is that it’s possible to build infrastructure to deliver energy for those traveling or needing to “fill up” while away from home. So a hotel, 7-11, restaurants, could all invest in these charging stations and make them a profit center. Heading from BC to LA? Pull over and eat and charge at the same time.

    Why would eEstor be so secretive? Have you considered the predatorial behavior of the auto and oil industries? Corporate espionage is rampant. Big companies like to patent ideas they never invented and box out competition. We all benefit from cheaper, safer technology, but there is a percentage of the population that has no interest in bettering the world. Rather, they prefer to overcharge and squash competition.

    I hope eEstor delivers. If they do, expect some serious push back from big companies as the paradigm of transportation and energy storage shifts. If eEstor’s ultra cap works, things will get nasty while the predators attempt to buyout or otherwise control the technology. The issue is rarely, if ever, discussed and is really a serious problem that is linked directly with any betterment of the human condition.

  • William

    The 5 minute charge issue:

    From what I’ve heard from Ian Clifford at Zenn, the five minute charge is capable with a special charging station. Using a 110v wall plug, the eEstor takes 2 hours on a dead battery, and 1 hour using a 220v plug.

    The point about the 5 minute charge is that it’s possible to build infrastructure to deliver energy for those traveling or needing to “fill up” while away from home. So a hotel, 7-11, restaurants, could all invest in these charging stations and make them a profit center. Heading from BC to LA? Pull over and eat and charge at the same time.

    Why would eEstor be so secretive? Have you considered the predatorial behavior of the auto and oil industries? Corporate espionage is rampant. Big companies like to patent ideas they never invented and box out competition. We all benefit from cheaper, safer technology, but there is a percentage of the population that has no interest in bettering the world. Rather, they prefer to overcharge and squash competition.

    I hope eEstor delivers. If they do, expect some serious push back from big companies as the paradigm of transportation and energy storage shifts. If eEstor’s ultra cap works, things will get nasty while the predators attempt to buyout or otherwise control the technology. The issue is rarely, if ever, discussed and is really a serious problem that is linked directly with any betterment of the human condition.

  • Dan Moore

    Why not have another one at home always charged ready to dump into the car?

  • Dan Moore

    Why not have another one at home always charged ready to dump into the car?

  • http://Web BIll

    I wonder if Lockheed martin will block its usage? since they have so much invested in the military arena and the war business for foreign oil?

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