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Published on December 15th, 2008 | by Susan Kraemer

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Utilities Suggest Huge Electric Vehicle Orders

December 15th, 2008 by  
 

Utilities are among the groups now considering mass orders of electric vehicles from the U.S. automobile manufacturing sector, to help the auto companies make the biggest manufacturing realignment since since WWII.

The exploratory discussions are being conducted at top levels and among firms like PG&E who see plug in hybrid and all electric vehicles as a solution to uneven grid loads. Utilities have invested a great deal of research using the vehicle to grid (V2G) capabilities of plugged in electric vehicles to stabilize the grid.

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The idea being considered would involve joining together to put in a substantial order to put weight behind development of Plug In Hybrids (PHEVs) and electric vehicles (EVs). The idea is that large fleet orders would provide the certain market car makers need to make the initial move away from fossil fueled vehicles.

With their buying power (they could order 50,000 electric vehicles for their fleets) utilities could provide a solid beginning to switching Detroit to entirely new vehicle markets.

Talks with automakers have occurred individually and through the electric industry’s primary trade organization, the Edison Electric Institute, and include Xcel, Progress Energy, PG&E, Edison International and Wisconsin Energy Corp.

Dick Kelly, chief executive of Xcel Energy in Minneapolis said, “If we get enough of us together, we could put in a very large order and maybe a big down payment.”

Utilities gain less in increased electricity sales than in grid stabilization; evening out the load with the prospect of being able to swap electrons back and forth between a fleet of vehicles and the grid.  PHEVs draw only about 1.4–2 kW of power while charging; only about what a dishwasher draws.

The benefits for the nation are huge. Plug-In Hybrids leave their Hybrid counterparts in the dust, in mileage.

For example, where the Ford Escape Hybrid gets mileage in the 20’s or 30’s, a Plug In Escape would get over 80 MPG. It has now completed a year of successful testing with Southern California Edison.

The many aftermarket Prius conversions boast over 100 MPG as Plug In Hybrids compared with about 50 MPG as a first-gen Hybrid. Aftermarket Ford truck conversions similarly get about twice the mileage of their non plugged in hybrids.

And the Chevy Volt Extended-Range EV is designed from the ground up as an EV that only gets a boost for long-distance from gas. It would get also get over 100 MPG in cross-country driving, and not need gasoline for trips under 40 miles a day.

Further development to get these to market are endangered by the auto meltdown. In fact, to some extent, we have stopped buying new vehicles precisely because we are waiting for the switch to the post gasoline era vehicles.

So, Mark Duvall, a researcher at the EPRI suggests that the best help for automakers would be a multiyear order placed in one group from utilities fleets.

That’s because early models may be money losers, so multiyear orders would help automakers achieve profitable production. He estimates fuel savings, for utilities, at $10,000 to $15,000 per car. This kind of certain ongoing manufacturing order is a very safe way to grow small businesses from scratch, and could even help restabilize the large automanufacturers in the same way now that their future is under threat.

“I would do it,” says Gale Klappa, CEO of Wisconsin Energy, adding that his utility has about 3,000 vehicles in its fleet and replaces 20% each year. Bill Johnson, chief executive of Progress Energy Inc. said, “Our industry is interested in reducing carbon-dioxide emissions, and it seems like a good idea for auto makers and us to pull together,”

He added that the idea is in a formative stage and is “gaining momentum.”

Related stories:

$50 Billion CalCars Plan to Jumpstart Detroit

Let’s Pay Detroit To Bring Their Gas Sipping Cars Home To the USA

Via the Wall Street Journal.

Image from the EPRI





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About the Author

writes at CleanTechnica, CSP-Today, PV-Insider , SmartGridUpdate, and GreenProphet. She has also been published at Ecoseed, NRDC OnEarth, MatterNetwork, Celsius, EnergyNow, and Scientific American. As a former serial entrepreneur in product design, Susan brings an innovator's perspective on inventing a carbon-constrained civilization: If necessity is the mother of invention, solving climate change is the mother of all necessities! As a lover of history and sci-fi, she enjoys chronicling the strange future we are creating in these interesting times.    Follow Susan on Twitter @dotcommodity.



  • Doug

    If they can do this and not stress the grid then great, but I still doubt the big 3 would take proper advantage of it.

  • Doug

    If they can do this and not stress the grid then great, but I still doubt the big 3 would take proper advantage of it.

  • They might. This is a near death experience…this is a good deal for a manufacturer.

    Good point as far as not stressing the grid; there have been lots of studies from the nation energy labs checking into that.The Pacific Northwest National Lab

    “If all the cars and light trucks in the nation switched from oil to electrons, idle capacity in the existing electric power system could generate most of the electricity consumed by plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. A new study for the Department of Energy finds that “off-peak” electricity production and transmission capacity could fuel 70% percent of the U.S. light-duty vehicle (LDV) fleet, if they were plug-in hybrid electrics. (Note: an earlier version of this release referenced 84% capacity based on LDV fleet classification that excluded vans).”

  • They might. This is a near death experience…this is a good deal for a manufacturer.

    Good point as far as not stressing the grid; there have been lots of studies from the nation energy labs checking into that.The Pacific Northwest National Lab

    “If all the cars and light trucks in the nation switched from oil to electrons, idle capacity in the existing electric power system could generate most of the electricity consumed by plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. A new study for the Department of Energy finds that “off-peak” electricity production and transmission capacity could fuel 70% percent of the U.S. light-duty vehicle (LDV) fleet, if they were plug-in hybrid electrics. (Note: an earlier version of this release referenced 84% capacity based on LDV fleet classification that excluded vans).”

  • DensityDuck

    See, this is another place the bailout money could go: Replacing government vehicle fleets with hybrids or EVs.

    Oh wait, that’s right–there’s none available. GM has spent the last five years dicking around trying to fit the Volt onto the Cruze chassis so that they can sell more Cruzes. Ford and Chrysler don’t even have THAT excuse.

  • DensityDuck

    See, this is another place the bailout money could go: Replacing government vehicle fleets with hybrids or EVs.

    Oh wait, that’s right–there’s none available. GM has spent the last five years dicking around trying to fit the Volt onto the Cruze chassis so that they can sell more Cruzes. Ford and Chrysler don’t even have THAT excuse.

  • Jose

    “evening out the load with the prospect of being able to swap electrons back and forth between a fleet of vehicles and the grid.” Just what does the latter mean, that electric vehicles will be used by the electric utilities for storage of electrical energy? How much energy can 50,000 battery-operated utility vehicles release to the grid per hour – 100,000 kw-hrs? That amount of electrical power would only be about 100 megawatts, one tenth the power of a typical electrical power plant. That’s peanut! What about losses of electical energy to heat in these processes? This story gives the impression that “off-peak” electricity production is wasted and that plug-in hybrids will utilize it thus making electrical energy production more efficient. However, if there is a reduced load on the grid during non-peak demand periods less energy in the form of coal, natural gas, etc., is needed to satisfy the load on the grid. Anyone who thinks that our electrical generating capacity and our electrical distribution system (the grid) are anywhere near ready to handle millions of plug-in hybrids and electric cars is in for one rude awakening. And of course any increase in electrical generating capacity will have to employ fossil fuels as renewable energy would not be up to the task.

  • Jose

    “evening out the load with the prospect of being able to swap electrons back and forth between a fleet of vehicles and the grid.” Just what does the latter mean, that electric vehicles will be used by the electric utilities for storage of electrical energy? How much energy can 50,000 battery-operated utility vehicles release to the grid per hour – 100,000 kw-hrs? That amount of electrical power would only be about 100 megawatts, one tenth the power of a typical electrical power plant. That’s peanut! What about losses of electical energy to heat in these processes? This story gives the impression that “off-peak” electricity production is wasted and that plug-in hybrids will utilize it thus making electrical energy production more efficient. However, if there is a reduced load on the grid during non-peak demand periods less energy in the form of coal, natural gas, etc., is needed to satisfy the load on the grid. Anyone who thinks that our electrical generating capacity and our electrical distribution system (the grid) are anywhere near ready to handle millions of plug-in hybrids and electric cars is in for one rude awakening. And of course any increase in electrical generating capacity will have to employ fossil fuels as renewable energy would not be up to the task.

  • Tim Cleland

    Jose,

    I work at a national science lab and recently attended a seminar given by an expert in the electrical power generation field. He said that the main problem with the grid is the lack of storage for off-peak times.

    The reason for that is that the coal/natural-gas plants work very inefficiently unless they are at “full throttle” (i.e. the energy savings of being at “part throttle” is very little), but operating at full throttle when the power is not needed will literally burn out appliances/lights/etc. and cause a host of other problems. (Then at peak times “full throttle” is often not enough in some cities.)

    The gist of his talk was that if we had a storage medium of some sort to catch all that excess electricity generated by a plant operating at full throttle during off-peak hours, it’s almost free energy. Electric cars would be nearly a perfect solution as most people would charge them at off-peak hours.

    An interesting corollary of the above fact, according to him, is that wind mills are all but useless during off-peak hours with the current system. The power they generate does not enable the plants to reduce power output. All they do is make your refrigerator work a little faster and street lights operate a bit brighter, etc. They help during the peak times (assuming the wind is blowing), but not at night. Solar panels are better in that sense because they operate at their peak during peak demand hours.

    Electric automobiles (or some other storage) would be able to catch that wind power at night (as well as allow the plant to run at full efficiency at all times).

  • Tim Cleland

    Jose,

    I work at a national science lab and recently attended a seminar given by an expert in the electrical power generation field. He said that the main problem with the grid is the lack of storage for off-peak times.

    The reason for that is that the coal/natural-gas plants work very inefficiently unless they are at “full throttle” (i.e. the energy savings of being at “part throttle” is very little), but operating at full throttle when the power is not needed will literally burn out appliances/lights/etc. and cause a host of other problems. (Then at peak times “full throttle” is often not enough in some cities.)

    The gist of his talk was that if we had a storage medium of some sort to catch all that excess electricity generated by a plant operating at full throttle during off-peak hours, it’s almost free energy. Electric cars would be nearly a perfect solution as most people would charge them at off-peak hours.

    An interesting corollary of the above fact, according to him, is that wind mills are all but useless during off-peak hours with the current system. The power they generate does not enable the plants to reduce power output. All they do is make your refrigerator work a little faster and street lights operate a bit brighter, etc. They help during the peak times (assuming the wind is blowing), but not at night. Solar panels are better in that sense because they operate at their peak during peak demand hours.

    Electric automobiles (or some other storage) would be able to catch that wind power at night (as well as allow the plant to run at full efficiency at all times).

  • Dowlan Smith

    I think the benefit of the V2G system will not be so much as a source of electricity, but as an adjustable load. If the utility can temporarily pause or lower the charge rate for PHEVs or EVs during peak load times it would be very beneficial to them. A large adjustable load is equivalent to a large power reserve.

  • Dowlan Smith

    I think the benefit of the V2G system will not be so much as a source of electricity, but as an adjustable load. If the utility can temporarily pause or lower the charge rate for PHEVs or EVs during peak load times it would be very beneficial to them. A large adjustable load is equivalent to a large power reserve.

  • Mark in Texas

    Jose

    Back during my wasted youth I used to write software for electric power plant control systems. Starting one of those things up is not a trivial process. Once they are running they don’t shut them down unless they have to because starting and stopping is difficult and expensive and it puts stress on a lot of very expensive components who’s lifetimes are measured in starts and stops.

    The impression you got is correct. Much off peak electricity is wasted. Charging up vehicles with off peak electricity is basically free. What I imagine electric utilities will eventually go to will be a separate circuit that the utility will turn on remotely by some signal sent through the lines when demand drops at night. Electricity from that separate circuit will be much cheaper, maybe just a monthly connection charge.

    The nightmare scenario is that lots of people buy electric cars, all get home at the same time, plug in their cars, turn on the TV and air conditioner then start cooking supper on the electric stove.

  • Mark in Texas

    Jose

    Back during my wasted youth I used to write software for electric power plant control systems. Starting one of those things up is not a trivial process. Once they are running they don’t shut them down unless they have to because starting and stopping is difficult and expensive and it puts stress on a lot of very expensive components who’s lifetimes are measured in starts and stops.

    The impression you got is correct. Much off peak electricity is wasted. Charging up vehicles with off peak electricity is basically free. What I imagine electric utilities will eventually go to will be a separate circuit that the utility will turn on remotely by some signal sent through the lines when demand drops at night. Electricity from that separate circuit will be much cheaper, maybe just a monthly connection charge.

    The nightmare scenario is that lots of people buy electric cars, all get home at the same time, plug in their cars, turn on the TV and air conditioner then start cooking supper on the electric stove.

  • The Utility and Auto Industries can Together Kick-Start Economic Recovery!

    “Why sometimes, I’ve believed in six impossible things before breakfast.” Lewis Carroll

    Rapid rebirth of the automotive industry is now a matter of urgency. To the surprise of almost everyone, as unlikely as it may seem, revolutionary energy technology can change that goal from fantasy to reality.

    Several renewable new energy systems are in development throughout the world – as they reach the market, demand for fossil fuels will drop. However, few of these innovations have the potential to catalyze changes in the entire energy picture. Even fewer can substantially wind down carbon dioxide production fast enough to avoid the most drastic, life threatening, impacts caused by Global Warming.

    The earth is immersed in an extremely dense sea of energy. In 1926, inventor Hans Coler, in Germany, tapped what he termed “Space Energy”. His first generator delivered a few watts of electricity. During 1937, Coler demonstrated a second, 6,000 watt, generator that was later shown to the German navy. During WWII, a highly secret R&D project supported Coler, in attempts to achieve production in order to recharge submarine batteries without the need for a sub to surface. Late in the War, the Allies bombed the lab. After hostilities ended, Coler cooperated with British Intelligence, which published a Report in 1946, concluding his achievement was real. In 1979, the British Intelligence Report was declassified. Today, it can readily be found on the internet.

    We are developing revolutionary new technology. Some of our generators may prove to be tapping the same, Space Energy resource. It is now often referred to as the Quantum Vacuum, or Zero Point Energy (ZPE). U.S. Patent, No. 7,379,286 (not directly connected with our work) is entitled: Quantum Vacuum Energy Extraction. It provides a comprehensive discussion of the Zero Point Field. The Patent is readily available on the web and provides scientists and skeptics with an excellent analysis.

    Ambient heat surrounds us at all times. It is another huge untapped energy reservoir. When it is utilized on a very large scale, it can help resolve our energy problems. On earth, ambient heat is a secondary power source powered by the sun. Sunlight is conserved in matter, such as rocks, in the form of heat. A great deal of energy remains available after sunset. Matter acts as an energy storage system for heat and allows life to survive periods of darkness. The stored energy is released after sunset or if the energy has been absorbed. Absorption takes place whenever heat is converted into electricity cooling instead of heating the planet. Those who doubt this is possible may find the two papers dealing with Maxwell at the following link of interest: http://arxiv.org/find/physics/1/au:+Fu_X/0/1/0/all/0/1

    Unconventional energy conversion systems are under development in several countries. Those inventions that become practical products may prove to be tapping one or the other of these never previously commercialized, renewable, abundant sources of energy. Revolutionary new energy conversion devices can be manufactured in many of the world’s existing factories. They are likely to prove inherently cost-competitive. Not only can they be used to power homes and businesses of every variety, but also to make practical cars, trucks and buses that need no engines, batteries, or any variety of conventional fuel or recharge.

    Advanced designs will soon be capable of producing torque and/or electricity on a self-sustaining basis. Devices without moving parts are comparable to an inexhaustible electric battery. One Proof-of-Concept prototype was evaluated by Lee Felsenstein, EE. He concluded it to be analogous to the early work on the transistor, which eventually led to a Nobel Prize and the creation of Silicon Valley.

    Generators we are developing are expected to generate this much power and demonstrate replacement of the plug needed by a plug-in hybrid car, within a year. This will be a harbinger of automobiles that need no conventional fuel. With normal progress, prototype new energy conversion systems are anticipated to replace an automobile engine within three years. That goal might be achieved more rapidly if development involves four teams of engineers and technicians working on a 24/7 basis. These prototypes will open a path to mass production of entirely new varieties of automotive power plants. Vehicles powered by these technologies will never require conventional fuel of any kind.

    Cars can become a substantial source of power!

    Vehicle to grid (V2G) power was demonstrated by Google and PG&E during 2007. It was recently estimated that selling power to the grid from future production hybrid electric cars might earn the vehicles’ owner $4,000 each year. This assumes that power will be drawn by utilities from the car’s batteries, by means of a two-way, plug.

    In the future, cars powered by new energy conversion systems are expected to earn much more, as these generators are anticipated to replace both batteries and car engines. Therefore, they are expected to produce far greater amounts of electricity. No plug will be required.

    Generators of the variety we are developing to power electric automobiles might be thought of as analogous to a fuel cell that needs no hydrogen. We can easily switch this cell on or off. When the car is driving the conversion device is switched on, providing energy to the electric motor that propels the car. When the vehicle is parked, the motor that drives the vehicle is turned ‘off’, but the modular device remains “on”, still producing energy, like a fuel cell that needs no fuel. In larger cars, trucks and buses, up to 150 kW, produced by the unit while the motor is off, can be transferred from the vehicle through a wireless technology requiring no physical connection to the parked vehicle, providing power to the utility grid. Instead of paying to park, the electric power utility may decide to pay vehicle owners, because their cars and trucks become a source of electricity, a clean alternative to any existing variety of power plant. Over a reasonable period of time, payments to the owner may be sufficient to reimburse the purchase price of many vehicles.

    Once cars, trucks and buses become available that need no fuel and can earn their keep, it is logical to expect automotive manufacturers will sell every such vehicle they make. Plants that have been shut down will reopen. Auto workers who have been laid off could have the opportunity to be rehired. Large numbers of new manufacturing jobs will be created.

    A revolutionary product this far-reaching has the potential to provide huge numbers of new jobs and opportunities for new enterprise. The economic impact of cars as power plants is likely to prove a surprising way to stimulate the global economy.

    It can also provide distributed generation of electricity wherever the grid is lacking or unreliable. Moreover, cars can wirelessly power homes and businesses. Imagine the many advantages, such as the aftermath of storms and other disasters.

    These technologies will rapidly reduce the need to import fuel and thereby accomplish a huge reduction in the balance of payments, a huge drain at present on our economy.

    Auto manufacturers are already preparing to market plug-in hybrids and electric cars. However, present technology sharply limits projected production volumes. Eliminating fuel burning engines and the need for batteries and recharge requirements will open huge new markets.

    When jet engines were proposed for airliners, experts projected it would take 20 years for the changeover to take place. In fact, it took only 5 years!

    When World War II began, auto makers rapidly shifted production to tanks and aircraft. These changes required massive reorganization. Shifting to new energy conversion systems that require no fuel or recharge is infinitely less difficult. It only requires the determination to adapt to rapid change that can insure not merely the survival, but the blossoming of the industry, instead of its destruction.

    With the surprisingly rapid pace of CO2 production, human survival on the planet is presently at stake. Myles Allen of Oxford University captures the essence of the situation in one sentence: “The danger zone is not something we’re going to reach in the middle of the century; we’re in it now.” It has been said: “What we do in the next two to three years will determine our future. This is the defining moment.”

    Energy consumption is at the core of human existence. We must sharply accelerate development of new, cost-effective, sustainable alternatives. The combination of the power and auto industries have the potential to catalyze, with a kick start, a global economic recovery.

  • The Utility and Auto Industries can Together Kick-Start Economic Recovery!

    “Why sometimes, I’ve believed in six impossible things before breakfast.” Lewis Carroll

    Rapid rebirth of the automotive industry is now a matter of urgency. To the surprise of almost everyone, as unlikely as it may seem, revolutionary energy technology can change that goal from fantasy to reality.

    Several renewable new energy systems are in development throughout the world – as they reach the market, demand for fossil fuels will drop. However, few of these innovations have the potential to catalyze changes in the entire energy picture. Even fewer can substantially wind down carbon dioxide production fast enough to avoid the most drastic, life threatening, impacts caused by Global Warming.

    The earth is immersed in an extremely dense sea of energy. In 1926, inventor Hans Coler, in Germany, tapped what he termed “Space Energy”. His first generator delivered a few watts of electricity. During 1937, Coler demonstrated a second, 6,000 watt, generator that was later shown to the German navy. During WWII, a highly secret R&D project supported Coler, in attempts to achieve production in order to recharge submarine batteries without the need for a sub to surface. Late in the War, the Allies bombed the lab. After hostilities ended, Coler cooperated with British Intelligence, which published a Report in 1946, concluding his achievement was real. In 1979, the British Intelligence Report was declassified. Today, it can readily be found on the internet.

    We are developing revolutionary new technology. Some of our generators may prove to be tapping the same, Space Energy resource. It is now often referred to as the Quantum Vacuum, or Zero Point Energy (ZPE). U.S. Patent, No. 7,379,286 (not directly connected with our work) is entitled: Quantum Vacuum Energy Extraction. It provides a comprehensive discussion of the Zero Point Field. The Patent is readily available on the web and provides scientists and skeptics with an excellent analysis.

    Ambient heat surrounds us at all times. It is another huge untapped energy reservoir. When it is utilized on a very large scale, it can help resolve our energy problems. On earth, ambient heat is a secondary power source powered by the sun. Sunlight is conserved in matter, such as rocks, in the form of heat. A great deal of energy remains available after sunset. Matter acts as an energy storage system for heat and allows life to survive periods of darkness. The stored energy is released after sunset or if the energy has been absorbed. Absorption takes place whenever heat is converted into electricity cooling instead of heating the planet. Those who doubt this is possible may find the two papers dealing with Maxwell at the following link of interest: http://arxiv.org/find/physics/1/au:+Fu_X/0/1/0/all/0/1

    Unconventional energy conversion systems are under development in several countries. Those inventions that become practical products may prove to be tapping one or the other of these never previously commercialized, renewable, abundant sources of energy. Revolutionary new energy conversion devices can be manufactured in many of the world’s existing factories. They are likely to prove inherently cost-competitive. Not only can they be used to power homes and businesses of every variety, but also to make practical cars, trucks and buses that need no engines, batteries, or any variety of conventional fuel or recharge.

    Advanced designs will soon be capable of producing torque and/or electricity on a self-sustaining basis. Devices without moving parts are comparable to an inexhaustible electric battery. One Proof-of-Concept prototype was evaluated by Lee Felsenstein, EE. He concluded it to be analogous to the early work on the transistor, which eventually led to a Nobel Prize and the creation of Silicon Valley.

    Generators we are developing are expected to generate this much power and demonstrate replacement of the plug needed by a plug-in hybrid car, within a year. This will be a harbinger of automobiles that need no conventional fuel. With normal progress, prototype new energy conversion systems are anticipated to replace an automobile engine within three years. That goal might be achieved more rapidly if development involves four teams of engineers and technicians working on a 24/7 basis. These prototypes will open a path to mass production of entirely new varieties of automotive power plants. Vehicles powered by these technologies will never require conventional fuel of any kind.

    Cars can become a substantial source of power!

    Vehicle to grid (V2G) power was demonstrated by Google and PG&E during 2007. It was recently estimated that selling power to the grid from future production hybrid electric cars might earn the vehicles’ owner $4,000 each year. This assumes that power will be drawn by utilities from the car’s batteries, by means of a two-way, plug.

    In the future, cars powered by new energy conversion systems are expected to earn much more, as these generators are anticipated to replace both batteries and car engines. Therefore, they are expected to produce far greater amounts of electricity. No plug will be required.

    Generators of the variety we are developing to power electric automobiles might be thought of as analogous to a fuel cell that needs no hydrogen. We can easily switch this cell on or off. When the car is driving the conversion device is switched on, providing energy to the electric motor that propels the car. When the vehicle is parked, the motor that drives the vehicle is turned ‘off’, but the modular device remains “on”, still producing energy, like a fuel cell that needs no fuel. In larger cars, trucks and buses, up to 150 kW, produced by the unit while the motor is off, can be transferred from the vehicle through a wireless technology requiring no physical connection to the parked vehicle, providing power to the utility grid. Instead of paying to park, the electric power utility may decide to pay vehicle owners, because their cars and trucks become a source of electricity, a clean alternative to any existing variety of power plant. Over a reasonable period of time, payments to the owner may be sufficient to reimburse the purchase price of many vehicles.

    Once cars, trucks and buses become available that need no fuel and can earn their keep, it is logical to expect automotive manufacturers will sell every such vehicle they make. Plants that have been shut down will reopen. Auto workers who have been laid off could have the opportunity to be rehired. Large numbers of new manufacturing jobs will be created.

    A revolutionary product this far-reaching has the potential to provide huge numbers of new jobs and opportunities for new enterprise. The economic impact of cars as power plants is likely to prove a surprising way to stimulate the global economy.

    It can also provide distributed generation of electricity wherever the grid is lacking or unreliable. Moreover, cars can wirelessly power homes and businesses. Imagine the many advantages, such as the aftermath of storms and other disasters.

    These technologies will rapidly reduce the need to import fuel and thereby accomplish a huge reduction in the balance of payments, a huge drain at present on our economy.

    Auto manufacturers are already preparing to market plug-in hybrids and electric cars. However, present technology sharply limits projected production volumes. Eliminating fuel burning engines and the need for batteries and recharge requirements will open huge new markets.

    When jet engines were proposed for airliners, experts projected it would take 20 years for the changeover to take place. In fact, it took only 5 years!

    When World War II began, auto makers rapidly shifted production to tanks and aircraft. These changes required massive reorganization. Shifting to new energy conversion systems that require no fuel or recharge is infinitely less difficult. It only requires the determination to adapt to rapid change that can insure not merely the survival, but the blossoming of the industry, instead of its destruction.

    With the surprisingly rapid pace of CO2 production, human survival on the planet is presently at stake. Myles Allen of Oxford University captures the essence of the situation in one sentence: “The danger zone is not something we’re going to reach in the middle of the century; we’re in it now.” It has been said: “What we do in the next two to three years will determine our future. This is the defining moment.”

    Energy consumption is at the core of human existence. We must sharply accelerate development of new, cost-effective, sustainable alternatives. The combination of the power and auto industries have the potential to catalyze, with a kick start, a global economic recovery.

  • Mark in Texas

    Mark Goldes

    So you are saying that if this Hans Coler had gotten his unlimited free energy generators working a few years earlier the Nazis would have won WW II but we would not have to worry about anthropogenic global warming?

    Dang. That’s a real moral dilemma.

    I mean the Nazis had cool uniforms, they cared about nature and they were very much against cigarette smoking and in favor of vegetarianism. But they did have a few features to their applied philosophy that I find troubling.

    I guess that I will just be happy that the Nazis lost the war and I won’t worry too much about anthropogenic global warming or perpetual motion machines.

  • Mark in Texas

    Mark Goldes

    So you are saying that if this Hans Coler had gotten his unlimited free energy generators working a few years earlier the Nazis would have won WW II but we would not have to worry about anthropogenic global warming?

    Dang. That’s a real moral dilemma.

    I mean the Nazis had cool uniforms, they cared about nature and they were very much against cigarette smoking and in favor of vegetarianism. But they did have a few features to their applied philosophy that I find troubling.

    I guess that I will just be happy that the Nazis lost the war and I won’t worry too much about anthropogenic global warming or perpetual motion machines.

  • Perpetual Commotion

    A Surprising Path to Fuel Free Cars, Trucks and Buses

    “In the realm of ideas everything depends on enthusiasm… in the real world all rests on perseverance.” Goethe

    Videos on the internet have stimulated a flurry of interest in devices that may be made to self-run, without any obvious outside source of input energy. A couple of them claim to have worked well enough to be on the way to production. While skeptics abound (and without independent laboratory confirmation, have excellent reason to be skeptical) these devices may open a door to wider appreciation of an extremely important potential for rapidly reducing our dependency on fossil fuels and reviving the automotive industry.

    Energy conversion devices that seemingly self-run are not, as is widely believed, perpetual motion machines. They are certainly converting some previously unutilized form of energy.

    One possible candidate is Zero Point Energy, ZPE. However, most scientists familiar with the Zero Point Field, believe that conversion of ZPE is unlikely to prove practical. As unconventional energy technologies move toward the marketplace, a discussion as to the source of the energy is inevitable. It may go on for a very long time. If practical, safe, cost-effective, power can be produced by such inventions, definitive answers to that question are not an urgent matter.

    A book that challenges conventional belief: Zero Point Energy – The Fuel of the Future, by Thomas Valone, provides extensive scientific input and can readily be understood by the lay reader.

    Physical Review and other refereed journals have published numerous articles suggesting ZPE might be utilized for power and propulsion. In the March 1st, 2004 issue, the magazine Aviation Week and Space Technology, summarized programs underway in the UK and the USA, in search of the latter.

    The first U.S. Patent issued claiming ZPE might be converted and used as a source of energy was inspired by the late Robert Forward, then a physicist at Hughes Aircraft. He had discussed, in a pioneering paper appearing in Physical Review B in 1984, how ZPE might become a source of electricity.

    Dr. Frank Mead of the United States Air Force Office of Advanced Concepts and Jack Nachamkin, an Electrical Engineer working with him (who had the idea) were awarded U.S. Patent #5,590,031, in December of 1996. Suggested by Dr. Forward, the invention has not proven possible to construct.

    Several U.S. Patents have been issued to Dr. Fabrizio Pinto, a physicist, formerly with NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (administered by the California Institute of Technology). Dr. Pinto is now CEO of his own firm and is developing breakthrough technology based on ZPE conversion of the Casimir Force. There are medical, computer and energy applications referenced in his Patents.

    A U.S. Patent entitled: QUANTUM VACUUM ENERGY EXTRACTION was issued to Bernard Haisch and Garret Moddel, May 27, 2008. The Abstract begins: A system is disclosed for converting energy from the electromagnetic quantum vacuum available at any point in the universe to usable energy in the form of heat, electricity, mechanical energy or other forms of power. It ends with this sentence: The disclosed devices are scalable in size and energy output for applications ranging from replacements for small batteries to power plant sized generators of electricity.

    Noberto R. Keppe, in his book: The New Physics – states that de Broglie, Bohm and Vigler all thought that at absolute zero (0 Kelvin = -459.67 degrees F) each cubic centimeter anywhere in the universe contains 1027 Joules of energy. He points out that this is the equivalent of the energy contained in 10 million tons of coal!

    Claims concerning mechanical magnetic systems that tap some new form of energy have surfaced periodically since the work of Wesley Gary, a Pennsylvania inventor, received the first of two U.S. Patents in 1877. Harvard and MIT Professors visited and were evidently impressed. Harper’s Weekly described his work in an article published in 1879. That article can readily be found on the web.

    The four wheeled automobile was invented in 1885. It will prove ironic if, as now seems likely, it should prove to be the case that human ignorance and scientific arrogance has been responsible for burning fuel to power vehicles.

    Imagine the huge potential impact cars and trucks that never require fuel or recharge represent for revival of the automotive industry and the world economy. Exploring that subject in depth might suffice to start a perpetual commotion.

  • Perpetual Commotion

    A Surprising Path to Fuel Free Cars, Trucks and Buses

    “In the realm of ideas everything depends on enthusiasm… in the real world all rests on perseverance.” Goethe

    Videos on the internet have stimulated a flurry of interest in devices that may be made to self-run, without any obvious outside source of input energy. A couple of them claim to have worked well enough to be on the way to production. While skeptics abound (and without independent laboratory confirmation, have excellent reason to be skeptical) these devices may open a door to wider appreciation of an extremely important potential for rapidly reducing our dependency on fossil fuels and reviving the automotive industry.

    Energy conversion devices that seemingly self-run are not, as is widely believed, perpetual motion machines. They are certainly converting some previously unutilized form of energy.

    One possible candidate is Zero Point Energy, ZPE. However, most scientists familiar with the Zero Point Field, believe that conversion of ZPE is unlikely to prove practical. As unconventional energy technologies move toward the marketplace, a discussion as to the source of the energy is inevitable. It may go on for a very long time. If practical, safe, cost-effective, power can be produced by such inventions, definitive answers to that question are not an urgent matter.

    A book that challenges conventional belief: Zero Point Energy – The Fuel of the Future, by Thomas Valone, provides extensive scientific input and can readily be understood by the lay reader.

    Physical Review and other refereed journals have published numerous articles suggesting ZPE might be utilized for power and propulsion. In the March 1st, 2004 issue, the magazine Aviation Week and Space Technology, summarized programs underway in the UK and the USA, in search of the latter.

    The first U.S. Patent issued claiming ZPE might be converted and used as a source of energy was inspired by the late Robert Forward, then a physicist at Hughes Aircraft. He had discussed, in a pioneering paper appearing in Physical Review B in 1984, how ZPE might become a source of electricity.

    Dr. Frank Mead of the United States Air Force Office of Advanced Concepts and Jack Nachamkin, an Electrical Engineer working with him (who had the idea) were awarded U.S. Patent #5,590,031, in December of 1996. Suggested by Dr. Forward, the invention has not proven possible to construct.

    Several U.S. Patents have been issued to Dr. Fabrizio Pinto, a physicist, formerly with NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (administered by the California Institute of Technology). Dr. Pinto is now CEO of his own firm and is developing breakthrough technology based on ZPE conversion of the Casimir Force. There are medical, computer and energy applications referenced in his Patents.

    A U.S. Patent entitled: QUANTUM VACUUM ENERGY EXTRACTION was issued to Bernard Haisch and Garret Moddel, May 27, 2008. The Abstract begins: A system is disclosed for converting energy from the electromagnetic quantum vacuum available at any point in the universe to usable energy in the form of heat, electricity, mechanical energy or other forms of power. It ends with this sentence: The disclosed devices are scalable in size and energy output for applications ranging from replacements for small batteries to power plant sized generators of electricity.

    Noberto R. Keppe, in his book: The New Physics – states that de Broglie, Bohm and Vigler all thought that at absolute zero (0 Kelvin = -459.67 degrees F) each cubic centimeter anywhere in the universe contains 1027 Joules of energy. He points out that this is the equivalent of the energy contained in 10 million tons of coal!

    Claims concerning mechanical magnetic systems that tap some new form of energy have surfaced periodically since the work of Wesley Gary, a Pennsylvania inventor, received the first of two U.S. Patents in 1877. Harvard and MIT Professors visited and were evidently impressed. Harper’s Weekly described his work in an article published in 1879. That article can readily be found on the web.

    The four wheeled automobile was invented in 1885. It will prove ironic if, as now seems likely, it should prove to be the case that human ignorance and scientific arrogance has been responsible for burning fuel to power vehicles.

    Imagine the huge potential impact cars and trucks that never require fuel or recharge represent for revival of the automotive industry and the world economy. Exploring that subject in depth might suffice to start a perpetual commotion.

  • Stan Wellaway

    “..The nightmare scenario is that lots of people buy electric cars, all get home at the same time, plug in their cars, turn on the TV and air conditioner then start cooking supper on the electric stove…”

    Mark, that is very easily answered by simple use of a timer which allows the vehicle recharging to kick in at midnight. Or at staggered times before then.

  • Stan Wellaway

    “..The nightmare scenario is that lots of people buy electric cars, all get home at the same time, plug in their cars, turn on the TV and air conditioner then start cooking supper on the electric stove…”

    Mark, that is very easily answered by simple use of a timer which allows the vehicle recharging to kick in at midnight. Or at staggered times before then.

  • Stan Wellaway

    It might be worth keeping a very close ear on what Ford say just before midday on Sunday 11th January in Detroit.

    They are due to uncover details of their proposed all-electric battery powered van for 2010. I live in the UK, and the buzz here is that Smith Electric Vehicles might be revealed as their partner in this. The two companies have worked very very closely for over a year. Ford provided engineering design input for the Smith Ampere. The Ampere is based on the Ford Transit Connect – a van which Ford make in Turkey and Romania and which is being brought to the USA. Ford displayed a yellowcab taxi version at shows in Chicago and New York last spring. (It doesn’t take much to imagine that an all-electric taxi would work well in many cities)

    Smith have been producing electric vehicles for over 80 years, in which time they’ve quietly shipped an estimated 70 thousand of them worldwide(!). They have a complete range of all-electric vans and trucks in production. They sold about 400 of them in the past year. See the Case Studies page at their website http://www.smithelectricvehicles.com

    Smith is owned by Tanfield Group, a UK company quoted on the London stockmarket. And here’s the interesting bit — their main line of business is aerial work platforms. They own the UpRight and Snorkel brands, making them the world’s fourth biggest player in that field. They have in the past produced truck-mounted platforms used by utilities in maintaining street lamps etc. Snorkel has production facilities in the US, and Tanfield have hinted that floor space within them might be given over to producing electric trucks.

    Check out http://www.snorkelusa.com and http://www.upright.com

    Smith have previously exhibited a model called the Faraday – which is built for the US market and is based on the Ford F-650. I understand they might be showing this at the Work TRuck show in Chicago, March 4-6th 2009.

  • Stan Wellaway

    It might be worth keeping a very close ear on what Ford say just before midday on Sunday 11th January in Detroit.

    They are due to uncover details of their proposed all-electric battery powered van for 2010. I live in the UK, and the buzz here is that Smith Electric Vehicles might be revealed as their partner in this. The two companies have worked very very closely for over a year. Ford provided engineering design input for the Smith Ampere. The Ampere is based on the Ford Transit Connect – a van which Ford make in Turkey and Romania and which is being brought to the USA. Ford displayed a yellowcab taxi version at shows in Chicago and New York last spring. (It doesn’t take much to imagine that an all-electric taxi would work well in many cities)

    Smith have been producing electric vehicles for over 80 years, in which time they’ve quietly shipped an estimated 70 thousand of them worldwide(!). They have a complete range of all-electric vans and trucks in production. They sold about 400 of them in the past year. See the Case Studies page at their website http://www.smithelectricvehicles.com

    Smith is owned by Tanfield Group, a UK company quoted on the London stockmarket. And here’s the interesting bit — their main line of business is aerial work platforms. They own the UpRight and Snorkel brands, making them the world’s fourth biggest player in that field. They have in the past produced truck-mounted platforms used by utilities in maintaining street lamps etc. Snorkel has production facilities in the US, and Tanfield have hinted that floor space within them might be given over to producing electric trucks.

    Check out http://www.snorkelusa.com and http://www.upright.com

    Smith have previously exhibited a model called the Faraday – which is built for the US market and is based on the Ford F-650. I understand they might be showing this at the Work TRuck show in Chicago, March 4-6th 2009.

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  • Stan Wellaway

    “…Replacing government vehicle fleets with hybrids or EVs. Oh wait, that’s right–there’s none available…”

    Oh yes there are. It’s just that Americans very often cannot see beyond America. Check out what’s happening in Europe. Start by visiting this website http://www.smithelectricvehicles.com and, after viewing the image on the home page, go to the Case Studies page. This is a UK company that has a full range of electric vehicles. Not in prototype form for showing off at exhibitions, but in production and on the road. Fully highway capable. Around 400 of them have been bought in the past year, by hardheaded fleet managers who see an economic case for them, not just a green image case.

    Their smallest vehicle, the Smith Ampere, is based on the Ford Transit Connect. Ford not only collaborated in the engineering design, but gave the Ampere floor space on the Ford stand at the CV-2008 exhibition last April. This is quite possibly the vehicle that Ford will be unveiling in Chicago in a few weeks time for the US market. At either the car show in February or the Work Truck show in March. Or could that be the larger Smith Edison? The Edison is based on the Ford Transit.

    Smith also produce a truck called the Faraday. Not shown yet on their website but based on Ford’s F-650. They also produce bigger trucks – from 7.5ton to 12ton – using Avia chassis (formerly Daewoo).

    These are all highway-capable with decent performance characteristics.

  • Stan Wellaway

    “…Replacing government vehicle fleets with hybrids or EVs. Oh wait, that’s right–there’s none available…”

    Oh yes there are. It’s just that Americans very often cannot see beyond America. Check out what’s happening in Europe. Start by visiting this website http://www.smithelectricvehicles.com and, after viewing the image on the home page, go to the Case Studies page. This is a UK company that has a full range of electric vehicles. Not in prototype form for showing off at exhibitions, but in production and on the road. Fully highway capable. Around 400 of them have been bought in the past year, by hardheaded fleet managers who see an economic case for them, not just a green image case.

    Their smallest vehicle, the Smith Ampere, is based on the Ford Transit Connect. Ford not only collaborated in the engineering design, but gave the Ampere floor space on the Ford stand at the CV-2008 exhibition last April. This is quite possibly the vehicle that Ford will be unveiling in Chicago in a few weeks time for the US market. At either the car show in February or the Work Truck show in March. Or could that be the larger Smith Edison? The Edison is based on the Ford Transit.

    Smith also produce a truck called the Faraday. Not shown yet on their website but based on Ford’s F-650. They also produce bigger trucks – from 7.5ton to 12ton – using Avia chassis (formerly Daewoo).

    These are all highway-capable with decent performance characteristics.

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  • envigmaarravy

    Hello.

    I’m new there

    Nice forum!

  • envigmaarravy

    Hello.

    I’m new there

    Nice forum!

  • DaveCahonne

    Never underestimate the power of the internet. An increasing number of people use the internet

    to search for a business or service so having a web presence is an important media for promoting

    your company. Web design is a real skill and if your website is to not only look good but work well,

    it should be constructed by a professional web designer.

    If you are interested, you can contact me: hqwebdesign (AT) gmail (DOT) com

  • DaveCahonne

    Never underestimate the power of the internet. An increasing number of people use the internet

    to search for a business or service so having a web presence is an important media for promoting

    your company. Web design is a real skill and if your website is to not only look good but work well,

    it should be constructed by a professional web designer.

    If you are interested, you can contact me: hqwebdesign (AT) gmail (DOT) com

  • Nikos-winter

    This movie has won 8 Oscars , does it really deserve that, one thing is for sure if it was released in India it would have probably flop.

    I think it’s a nice movie, small budget comparing to other Hollywood movies, nice songs .. What are your view, does it really deserve 8 Oscars or nothing at all ?

  • Nikos-winter

    This movie has won 8 Oscars , does it really deserve that, one thing is for sure if it was released in India it would have probably flop.

    I think it’s a nice movie, small budget comparing to other Hollywood movies, nice songs .. What are your view, does it really deserve 8 Oscars or nothing at all ?

  • ClraiGixFun

    Hope to learn a lot and have a nice experience here! my best regards guys!

  • ClraiGixFun

    Hope to learn a lot and have a nice experience here! my best regards guys!

  • Hi everyone.

    Just joined and wanted to say hello. I have been around the forum for a while, reading and getting a feel for the atmosphere and now I have decided to join. I will read around a little more before adding my $.02 so I don’t embarrass myself.

    Thanks for having me.

  • Hi everyone.

    Just joined and wanted to say hello. I have been around the forum for a while, reading and getting a feel for the atmosphere and now I have decided to join. I will read around a little more before adding my $.02 so I don’t embarrass myself.

    Thanks for having me.

  • Hi everyone.

    Just joined and wanted to say hello. I have been around the forum for a while, reading and getting a feel for the atmosphere and now I have decided to join. I will read around a little more before adding my $.02 so I don’t embarrass myself.

    Thanks for having me.

  • Taxi Transfers Faro Aeroporto Barato faro airport transfers to

  • Taxi Transfers Faro Aeroporto Barato faro airport transfers to

  • CaseyFronczek

    I saw that Casey Fronczek is offering fishing trips now down in south Florida. Does anybody have any input on these trips or has anyone been on one of these trips before?

  • CaseyFronczek

    I saw that Casey Fronczek is offering fishing trips now down in south Florida. Does anybody have any input on these trips or has anyone been on one of these trips before?

  • sharonkrropxx

    Hi all!

    I`m new user on this forum. My name is Sharon I`m 23 yo girl from New York.

    I hope to have good time here

  • sharonkrropxx

    Hi all!

    I`m new user on this forum. My name is Sharon I`m 23 yo girl from New York.

    I hope to have good time here

  • Elazyblilla

    Newer member, just wanted to introduce myself. I hope to learn a lot from everyone. 🙂

  • Elazyblilla

    Newer member, just wanted to introduce myself. I hope to learn a lot from everyone. 🙂

  • Elazyblilla

    Newer member, just wanted to introduce myself. I hope to learn a lot from everyone. 🙂

  • argubbuhlaM

    Hello amazing thread we have going here.

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