Comments on: Silicon Could Give Lithium Ion Batteries 10X More Capacity http://gas2.org/2008/11/25/silicon-could-give-lithium-ion-batteries-10x-more-capacity/ What is the future of fuel? What's new? What's next? Since 2007, Gas 2 has covered a rapidly changing world coming to terms with its oil addiction. Mon, 13 Feb 2012 00:40:40 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Peter Fairley http://gas2.org/2008/11/25/silicon-could-give-lithium-ion-batteries-10x-more-capacity/#comment-6854 Peter Fairley Thu, 04 Dec 2008 13:30:35 +0000 http://gas2.org/?p=1314#comment-6854 My reporting for MIT Technology Review confirms what GSP is saying: anode improvement can help, but will not have full impact until cathode development catches up. Graphite anodes already have a charge density roughly double that of the average lithium battery cathode. See "Realizing Lithium Battery Potential" at http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/21750/. My reporting for MIT Technology Review confirms what GSP is saying: anode improvement can help, but will not have full impact until cathode development catches up. Graphite anodes already have a charge density roughly double that of the average lithium battery cathode. See “Realizing Lithium Battery Potential” at http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/21750/.

]]> By: Peter Fairley http://gas2.org/2008/11/25/silicon-could-give-lithium-ion-batteries-10x-more-capacity/#comment-28999 Peter Fairley Thu, 04 Dec 2008 13:30:00 +0000 http://gas2.org/?p=1314#comment-28999 My reporting for MIT Technology Review confirms what GSP is saying: anode improvement can help, but will not have full impact until cathode development catches up. Graphite anodes already have a charge density roughly double that of the average lithium battery cathode. See "Realizing Lithium Battery Potential" at http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/21750/. My reporting for MIT Technology Review confirms what GSP is saying: anode improvement can help, but will not have full impact until cathode development catches up. Graphite anodes already have a charge density roughly double that of the average lithium battery cathode. See “Realizing Lithium Battery Potential” at http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/21750/.

]]> By: Steven Ehrbar http://gas2.org/2008/11/25/silicon-could-give-lithium-ion-batteries-10x-more-capacity/#comment-6853 Steven Ehrbar Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:24:30 +0000 http://gas2.org/?p=1314#comment-6853 Actually, no, we won't get 10x battery capacity from the 10x anode improvement. To quote <a href="http://gm-volt.com/2007/12/21/gm-voltcom-interview-with-dr-cui-inventor-of-silicon-nanowire-lithium-ion-battery-breakthrough/" rel="nofollow">the guy who started by experimenting with silicon nanowires</a> ----- <i>Compared to current A123 or LG Chem cells, if they used your silicon nanowire technology would they be able to store 10 x as much energy?</i> Yes, that the idea, they would be able to hold 10 x as much energy in the same amount of volume or same amount of weight. Of course the battery consist of two electrodes, the anode and cathode, you would also like to improve the cathode too to make it happen. <i>If you just changed the anode to nanowire and not the cathode, would the cathode limit the energy potential storage?</i> If you improve the anode that just means for the same weight or same volume of the batteries you can use less anode materials, you can use the extra weight and volume to hold more cathode materials and you also improve the battery significantly. If I take a current battery’s cathode materials and combine i with silicon nanowire anode, I can significantly improve its performance. <i>Will that give you a ten-fold improvement?</i> That will not give you ten-fold but it will give you several fold improvement. <i>In terms of energy density?</i> Yes. ----- Actually, no, we won’t get 10x battery capacity from the 10x anode improvement.

To quote the guy who started by experimenting with silicon nanowires

—–

Compared to current A123 or LG Chem cells, if they used your silicon nanowire technology would they be able to store 10 x as much energy?

Yes, that the idea, they would be able to hold 10 x as much energy in the same amount of volume or same amount of weight. Of course the battery consist of two electrodes, the anode and cathode, you would also like to improve the cathode too to make it happen.

If you just changed the anode to nanowire and not the cathode, would the cathode limit the energy potential storage?

If you improve the anode that just means for the same weight or same volume of the batteries you can use less anode materials, you can use the extra weight and volume to hold more cathode materials and you also improve the battery significantly.

If I take a current battery’s cathode materials and combine i with silicon nanowire anode, I can significantly improve its performance.

Will that give you a ten-fold improvement?

That will not give you ten-fold but it will give you several fold improvement.

In terms of energy density?

Yes.

—–

]]> By: Steven Ehrbar http://gas2.org/2008/11/25/silicon-could-give-lithium-ion-batteries-10x-more-capacity/#comment-28998 Steven Ehrbar Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:24:00 +0000 http://gas2.org/?p=1314#comment-28998 Actually, no, we won't get 10x battery capacity from the 10x anode improvement. To quote <a href="http://gm-volt.com/2007/12/21/gm-voltcom-interview-with-dr-cui-inventor-of-silicon-nanowire-lithium-ion-battery-breakthrough/" rel="nofollow">the guy who started by experimenting with silicon nanowires</a> ----- <i>Compared to current A123 or LG Chem cells, if they used your silicon nanowire technology would they be able to store 10 x as much energy?</i> Yes, that the idea, they would be able to hold 10 x as much energy in the same amount of volume or same amount of weight. Of course the battery consist of two electrodes, the anode and cathode, you would also like to improve the cathode too to make it happen. <i>If you just changed the anode to nanowire and not the cathode, would the cathode limit the energy potential storage?</i> If you improve the anode that just means for the same weight or same volume of the batteries you can use less anode materials, you can use the extra weight and volume to hold more cathode materials and you also improve the battery significantly. If I take a current battery’s cathode materials and combine i with silicon nanowire anode, I can significantly improve its performance. <i>Will that give you a ten-fold improvement?</i> That will not give you ten-fold but it will give you several fold improvement. <i>In terms of energy density?</i> Yes. ----- Actually, no, we won’t get 10x battery capacity from the 10x anode improvement.

To quote the guy who started by experimenting with silicon nanowires

—–

Compared to current A123 or LG Chem cells, if they used your silicon nanowire technology would they be able to store 10 x as much energy?

Yes, that the idea, they would be able to hold 10 x as much energy in the same amount of volume or same amount of weight. Of course the battery consist of two electrodes, the anode and cathode, you would also like to improve the cathode too to make it happen.

If you just changed the anode to nanowire and not the cathode, would the cathode limit the energy potential storage?

If you improve the anode that just means for the same weight or same volume of the batteries you can use less anode materials, you can use the extra weight and volume to hold more cathode materials and you also improve the battery significantly.

If I take a current battery’s cathode materials and combine i with silicon nanowire anode, I can significantly improve its performance.

Will that give you a ten-fold improvement?

That will not give you ten-fold but it will give you several fold improvement.

In terms of energy density?

Yes.

—–

]]> By: Mr. Forward http://gas2.org/2008/11/25/silicon-could-give-lithium-ion-batteries-10x-more-capacity/#comment-6852 Mr. Forward Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:03:36 +0000 http://gas2.org/?p=1314#comment-6852 "Stanford's (silicon) nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing ones" December 18, 2007 http://news-service.stanford.edu/pr/2007/pr-nanowire-010908.html nanowire forest vs. sponge “Stanford’s (silicon) nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing ones”

December 18, 2007

http://news-service.stanford.edu/pr/2007/pr-nanowire-010908.html

nanowire forest vs. sponge

]]> By: Mr. Forward http://gas2.org/2008/11/25/silicon-could-give-lithium-ion-batteries-10x-more-capacity/#comment-28997 Mr. Forward Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:03:00 +0000 http://gas2.org/?p=1314#comment-28997 "Stanford's (silicon) nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing ones" December 18, 2007 http://news-service.stanford.edu/pr/2007/pr-nanowire-010908.html nanowire forest vs. sponge “Stanford’s (silicon) nanowire battery holds 10 times the charge of existing ones”

December 18, 2007

http://news-service.stanford.edu/pr/2007/pr-nanowire-010908.html

nanowire forest vs. sponge

]]> By: Nick Chambers http://gas2.org/2008/11/25/silicon-could-give-lithium-ion-batteries-10x-more-capacity/#comment-6851 Nick Chambers Tue, 02 Dec 2008 17:13:47 +0000 http://gas2.org/?p=1314#comment-6851 Excellent point Josh. I don't know the answer to that, but I'd imagine it doesn't need the highly purified silicon due to the method of manufacture of the anode with acid etching and what not. Excellent point Josh. I don’t know the answer to that, but I’d imagine it doesn’t need the highly purified silicon due to the method of manufacture of the anode with acid etching and what not.

]]> By: Josh Reiter http://gas2.org/2008/11/25/silicon-could-give-lithium-ion-batteries-10x-more-capacity/#comment-6850 Josh Reiter Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:55:05 +0000 http://gas2.org/?p=1314#comment-6850 Hmmm. I think there is actually a shortage (or very nearly) of highly pure electronics grade silicon. What grade of silicon purity does this micro porous silicon structure require? If it requires the highly purified stuff then the cost of these batteries has the potential to be much higher when compared to current generation Li-ion batteries. Hmmm. I think there is actually a shortage (or very nearly) of highly pure electronics grade silicon. What grade of silicon purity does this micro porous silicon structure require? If it requires the highly purified stuff then the cost of these batteries has the potential to be much higher when compared to current generation Li-ion batteries.

]]> By: Josh Reiter http://gas2.org/2008/11/25/silicon-could-give-lithium-ion-batteries-10x-more-capacity/#comment-28996 Josh Reiter Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:55:00 +0000 http://gas2.org/?p=1314#comment-28996 Hmmm. I think there is actually a shortage (or very nearly) of highly pure electronics grade silicon. What grade of silicon purity does this micro porous silicon structure require? If it requires the highly purified stuff then the cost of these batteries has the potential to be much higher when compared to current generation Li-ion batteries. Hmmm. I think there is actually a shortage (or very nearly) of highly pure electronics grade silicon. What grade of silicon purity does this micro porous silicon structure require? If it requires the highly purified stuff then the cost of these batteries has the potential to be much higher when compared to current generation Li-ion batteries.

]]> By: Nicholas http://gas2.org/2008/11/25/silicon-could-give-lithium-ion-batteries-10x-more-capacity/#comment-6849 Nicholas Tue, 02 Dec 2008 13:18:01 +0000 http://gas2.org/?p=1314#comment-6849 Density isn't the only reason that Lithium Ion battery powered cars aren't being mass produced. Cost is another issue. While I'm sure it's technically possible to create a car with a 100 mile range based on Lithium Ion batteries, it's going to be quite expensive. I understand this is one of the reasons that many existing hybrids use NiMH batteries. Safety is another issue - LiIon have more issues with overheating and fires. So, if a future battery technology is able to produce cells with 10 times the energy density for twice the cost of current Lithium Ion batteries, not only would this allow longer ranged vehicles but it would also allow for cheaper vehicles with similar ranges that are possible today. In my opinion that's an even bigger obstacle to the widespread use of electric cars. Once they can compete on price with gasolene powered cars they will be much more attractive to the average person. Density isn’t the only reason that Lithium Ion battery powered cars aren’t being mass produced. Cost is another issue. While I’m sure it’s technically possible to create a car with a 100 mile range based on Lithium Ion batteries, it’s going to be quite expensive. I understand this is one of the reasons that many existing hybrids use NiMH batteries. Safety is another issue – LiIon have more issues with overheating and fires.

So, if a future battery technology is able to produce cells with 10 times the energy density for twice the cost of current Lithium Ion batteries, not only would this allow longer ranged vehicles but it would also allow for cheaper vehicles with similar ranges that are possible today. In my opinion that’s an even bigger obstacle to the widespread use of electric cars. Once they can compete on price with gasolene powered cars they will be much more attractive to the average person.

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