Poll results released by General Motors today clearly indicate that the majority of Americans think the government should provide bailout loans to the auto industry and that without those loans the “Big 3″ (GM, Ford, and Chrysler) will go bankrupt.
In a random survey of 804 American adults conducted by Peter D. Hart Research Associates and commissioned by General Motors (PDF), there is broad support for bailing out the the American auto industry — and even broader support of President-elect Obama’s plans to make sure “the American automobile industry continues to be able to operate.”
Some key findings:
- 55% of people surveyed said that the government should intervene and help the Auto Industry with loans. Only 30% said the government shouldn’t intervene, and 15% were unsure.
- Interestingly enough, when the question was “Do you agree with Obama’s plans to provide economic assistance to the auto industry?”, the number agreeing rose to 64%.
- 60% of Americans believe that without help, the auto industry will go bankrupt.
- 55% of Americans think that providing bailout money to the auto industry is “just as important” as providing it to the banks.
- Most people agree that the manufacturing base provided by the US auto industry is key to the US’s national security.
The survey also finds that the majority of Americans think that if the Big 3 were to go bankrupt, the US economy would likely fall into a depression.
Well, this is an amazingly sore topic with many of our readers, but I’m wondering what your reactions to this are? Are you one of the silent minority that feels we should just take our lumps and pony up to rescue the industry? If we do, do you think we should attach conditions on to that money? Should we force the auto industry to start making more plug-in, clean diesel or CNG vehicles?
Or do you think we should let them go bankrupt so that a new era of auto manufacturers can take over? Come on folks, if you’re an American it’s your money. So you’re vested in this decision whether you want to be or not.
Source: GMfactsandfiction.com
Image Credit: Photo Mojo‘s Flickr Photostream under a Creative Commons License
PDF 
Too small a sample to yield any significant data. Also, questionable as GM retained said consultant.
Too small a sample to yield any significant data. Also, questionable as GM retained said consultant.
Too small a sample to yield any significant data. Also, questionable as GM retained said consultant.
Too small a sample to yield any significant data. Also, questionable as GM retained said consultant.
Entasis,
What size sample population do you think is necessary? From what I understand, 804 people is pretty average relative to other polls that are conducted. From a purely statistical standpoint, it seems valid and it has an error of ±3.5%.
Your question of motives influencing the survey outcome is a good one. I don’t know anything about the outfit that conducted the survey for GM. Anybody else out there know if Peter D. Hart Research Associated has a good track record?
This just in: Auto Industry tells us we want to save them. What else did anyone think they would tell us – “No, don’t give us money?”. Lame.
This just in: Auto Industry tells us we want to save them. What else did anyone think they would tell us – “No, don’t give us money?”. Lame.
This just in: Auto Industry tells us we want to save them. What else did anyone think they would tell us – “No, don’t give us money?”. Lame.
First an industry-funded group issues a “report” claiming that millions would lose their jobs should the Big Three go belly up. Then GM commissions a survey that tosses around the “bankruptcy” word. What a crock.
Even with their scare tactics, the Big Three find that only 55% would support some kind of government help. I’d bet that faced with real numbers, voters would become less and less likely to support a bailout.
Ask Americans who pay taxes some questions with real numbers, and see what they say. How about “Did you know that the federal government already has enacted a law that will offer the auto industry up to $25 billion in retooling loans?” Or “Did you realize that the UAW wants $25 billion in cash for its health fund, on top of $25 billion in retooling loans already available, and a yet another $25 billion in loans just to run the companies?” Perhaps “do you think the auto workers should share the cost of any bailout plan, such as by taking wage cuts until the loans have been repaid?”
First an industry-funded group issues a “report” claiming that millions would lose their jobs should the Big Three go belly up. Then GM commissions a survey that tosses around the “bankruptcy” word. What a crock.
Even with their scare tactics, the Big Three find that only 55% would support some kind of government help. I’d bet that faced with real numbers, voters would become less and less likely to support a bailout.
Ask Americans who pay taxes some questions with real numbers, and see what they say. How about “Did you know that the federal government already has enacted a law that will offer the auto industry up to $25 billion in retooling loans?” Or “Did you realize that the UAW wants $25 billion in cash for its health fund, on top of $25 billion in retooling loans already available, and a yet another $25 billion in loans just to run the companies?” Perhaps “do you think the auto workers should share the cost of any bailout plan, such as by taking wage cuts until the loans have been repaid?”
Nick,
A consultant generally does what the client wants. Have read the questionnaire? Having done so are not some of the questions leading (e.g, “Obama said…”)?
Nick,
A consultant generally does what the client wants. Have read the questionnaire? Having done so are not some of the questions leading (e.g, “Obama said…”)?
Nick,
A consultant generally does what the client wants. Have read the questionnaire? Having done so are not some of the questions leading (e.g, “Obama said…”)?
Nick,
A consultant generally does what the client wants. Have read the questionnaire? Having done so are not some of the questions leading (e.g, “Obama said…”)?
@Entasis – Really, my only disagreement with you was that, from a purely statistical standpoint, the survey seems valid.
As you point out, the problem is that some of their questions may be leading, but others may not be. The survey (as do all surveys) builds on itself and could be construed as trying to lead people in a certain direction as the survey progresses.
@Sebastian – I do wish that some other outfit would conduct a survey like this (like Gallup) that wasn’t commissioned by an auto company. That might give us a better perspective, but for now, this is all we have.
“The big three should be allowed to go bankrupt under Chapter 11, without any financial federal or state support”, says this Dutch guy in his blog post
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=1242171763796124927&postID=4060762712319515232&page=1
(There is a place for anonymous and signed comments.)
“The big three should be allowed to go bankrupt under Chapter 11, without any financial federal or state support”, says this Dutch guy in his blog post
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=1242171763796124927&postID=4060762712319515232&page=1
(There is a place for anonymous and signed comments.)
We should not bail them out. It is not as important as the bank bailout (see here: http://www.optimist123.com/optimist/2008/11/the-socialism-debate.html )
The auto makers should negotiate with their union to lower their wages to a competitive (US toyota/honda workers) wage. If the UAW doesn’t like it, ask the UAW if they’d prefer that GM go under and wave goodbye to all of their jobs, health care and pensions?
Both the companies and the unions are to blame for the current problems they are facing. But if they’re not competitive, they should fail. Just like every other business in this country.
We should not bail them out. It is not as important as the bank bailout (see here: http://www.optimist123.com/optimist/2008/11/the-socialism-debate.html )
The auto makers should negotiate with their union to lower their wages to a competitive (US toyota/honda workers) wage. If the UAW doesn’t like it, ask the UAW if they’d prefer that GM go under and wave goodbye to all of their jobs, health care and pensions?
Both the companies and the unions are to blame for the current problems they are facing. But if they’re not competitive, they should fail. Just like every other business in this country.
I think there should be some major conditions attached to any bailout money. New management teams and requirements to increase production of fuel efficient vehicles. I wouldn’t mind seeing one of the three (GM?) fall to send a message that the other two need to shape up. The problem is the massive economic havoc that would wreck on millions of families.
Are there other smaller American car companies that have more progressive instincts that the GOV could invest in? If GM were to fail, maybe a group of smaller manufactures could pick up the slack.
Honestly, why there isn’t an American brand that is synonymous with fuel efficiency is beyond me. It seems like a company like Saturn could brand themselves like this, but something tells me that Saturn is owned by the big three.
I think there should be some major conditions attached to any bailout money. New management teams and requirements to increase production of fuel efficient vehicles. I wouldn’t mind seeing one of the three (GM?) fall to send a message that the other two need to shape up. The problem is the massive economic havoc that would wreck on millions of families.
Are there other smaller American car companies that have more progressive instincts that the GOV could invest in? If GM were to fail, maybe a group of smaller manufactures could pick up the slack.
Honestly, why there isn’t an American brand that is synonymous with fuel efficiency is beyond me. It seems like a company like Saturn could brand themselves like this, but something tells me that Saturn is owned by the big three.
I will update my post [1] if I am wrong or complete, but I believe this a push-poll designed to get a desired response.
Sample size is reasonable, but Question #5 appears to be a prime to shift mean responses to the pro-bailout position.
[1] http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/11/14/the-detroit-push-pll.html
I will update my post [1] if I am wrong or complete, but I believe this a push-poll designed to get a desired response.
Sample size is reasonable, but Question #5 appears to be a prime to shift mean responses to the pro-bailout position.
[1] http://www.tdaxp.com/archive/2008/11/14/the-detroit-push-pll.html
I conducted surveys for 25 yrs before retiring, and did some work for the auto industry. In all honesty, this survey is a little too late. The results don’t matter. There will be no bailout while Bush is President and GM will not last until Obama takes over. They will have to file Chapter 11 and will not be able to get the financing they need to come out…they will not survive. Ford, Chrysler, the suppliers and the dealers will all go down as well. Investment banking has collapsed and now the US auto industry has started to collapse. Who is next? There are some cities, counties and states that are in trouble…
I conducted surveys for 25 yrs before retiring, and did some work for the auto industry. In all honesty, this survey is a little too late. The results don’t matter. There will be no bailout while Bush is President and GM will not last until Obama takes over. They will have to file Chapter 11 and will not be able to get the financing they need to come out…they will not survive. Ford, Chrysler, the suppliers and the dealers will all go down as well. Investment banking has collapsed and now the US auto industry has started to collapse. Who is next? There are some cities, counties and states that are in trouble…
“Honestly, why there isn’t an American brand that is synonymous with fuel efficiency is beyond me. It seems like a company like Saturn could brand themselves like this, but something tells me that Saturn is owned by the big three.”
Actually, GM tried this in the ’90s with Geo. Even the name and the company symbol were chosen to foster the image of “Mother Earth”. The Geo Metro XFI (’90-’94) still holds the non-hybrid fuel efficiency record at 53-city/58-highway mpg. The Suzuki Swift, upon which the Metro was based, didn’t have the XFI option available.
In the same time frame Saturn was also a fuel efficient brand (remember when Saturn first started the only models in the line-up were the S-series cars that got 38-40 mpg depending on tranmission choice). No one cared back then. All they wanted was SUVs, trucks and SUV-trucks.
“Honestly, why there isn’t an American brand that is synonymous with fuel efficiency is beyond me. It seems like a company like Saturn could brand themselves like this, but something tells me that Saturn is owned by the big three.”
Actually, GM tried this in the ’90s with Geo. Even the name and the company symbol were chosen to foster the image of “Mother Earth”. The Geo Metro XFI (’90-’94) still holds the non-hybrid fuel efficiency record at 53-city/58-highway mpg. The Suzuki Swift, upon which the Metro was based, didn’t have the XFI option available.
In the same time frame Saturn was also a fuel efficient brand (remember when Saturn first started the only models in the line-up were the S-series cars that got 38-40 mpg depending on tranmission choice). No one cared back then. All they wanted was SUVs, trucks and SUV-trucks.
How to salvage Detroit’s Big Three,
It does not surprise me that the majority of the US population is in favor of bailing out the Big 3 automakers but that does not mean it is wise to do so. (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081114/AUTO01/811140430)
This industry has been sub par to the Japanese and German car makers for at least 25 years. They are unlikely to do better in the near future even with a massive bailout, new products and new government oversight. Although the proposed bailout amount of $ 25 Billion is much snaller than the $ 700 Billion allocated for TARP, to bail out the financial industry, it is in addition tom the $ 25 Billion of low interest loans already approved in October and , the most is “invested” and at risk, the more likely it is that additional amounts will be put at risk in the future.
There is the odd chance they will succeed, but overall chances are that they will fail in a few years and the jobs will be lost anyhow, while the new jobs which could have been created with this same money did never get a chance.
It is throwing good money after bad.
It would be better to get Honda, Toyota, Tesla (and interested others) around the table to discuss how they can best utilize the existing plant and equipment to build Honda, Toyota and Tesla cars in Detroit after retooling the production lines and retraining the workers, both to the standards of the companies who take these parts over.
In particular with respect to hybrids and plug-in hybrids Toyota is the leader in knowledge and production experience. The main reason they are not producing plug-in vehicles yet is the price (too high to be cost efficient for most average mileage users, especially at currently falling gas prices).
Even if GM gets its Volt launched in 2010, I will for reasons of historical quality buy a plug-in hybrid from Toyota or Honda who surely will market one as well around that time. And with me more the majority of Americans will.
So, even if Detroit’s 3 are successful in producing something which, on the face of it, US car buyers would like, they still won’t buy it, until Detroit’s 3 have proven over a period of years that they can also outperform Toyota and Honda in quality.
This now becomes increasingly unlikely.
FEDs, get around the table with GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda and Toyota, spin off the foreign and military operations and financially induce Honda and Toyota to salvage and reuse whatever is left from Detroit’s car industry and try to rebuild it that way.
Vincent Dert
http://mortgagecrisisandpolitics.blogspot.com/
How to salvage Detroit’s Big Three,
It does not surprise me that the majority of the US population is in favor of bailing out the Big 3 automakers but that does not mean it is wise to do so. (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081114/AUTO01/811140430)
This industry has been sub par to the Japanese and German car makers for at least 25 years. They are unlikely to do better in the near future even with a massive bailout, new products and new government oversight. Although the proposed bailout amount of $ 25 Billion is much snaller than the $ 700 Billion allocated for TARP, to bail out the financial industry, it is in addition tom the $ 25 Billion of low interest loans already approved in October and , the most is “invested” and at risk, the more likely it is that additional amounts will be put at risk in the future.
There is the odd chance they will succeed, but overall chances are that they will fail in a few years and the jobs will be lost anyhow, while the new jobs which could have been created with this same money did never get a chance.
It is throwing good money after bad.
It would be better to get Honda, Toyota, Tesla (and interested others) around the table to discuss how they can best utilize the existing plant and equipment to build Honda, Toyota and Tesla cars in Detroit after retooling the production lines and retraining the workers, both to the standards of the companies who take these parts over.
In particular with respect to hybrids and plug-in hybrids Toyota is the leader in knowledge and production experience. The main reason they are not producing plug-in vehicles yet is the price (too high to be cost efficient for most average mileage users, especially at currently falling gas prices).
Even if GM gets its Volt launched in 2010, I will for reasons of historical quality buy a plug-in hybrid from Toyota or Honda who surely will market one as well around that time. And with me more the majority of Americans will.
So, even if Detroit’s 3 are successful in producing something which, on the face of it, US car buyers would like, they still won’t buy it, until Detroit’s 3 have proven over a period of years that they can also outperform Toyota and Honda in quality.
This now becomes increasingly unlikely.
FEDs, get around the table with GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda and Toyota, spin off the foreign and military operations and financially induce Honda and Toyota to salvage and reuse whatever is left from Detroit’s car industry and try to rebuild it that way.
Vincent Dert
http://mortgagecrisisandpolitics.blogspot.com/
…and Yes, Saturn is owned by GM.
…and Yes, Saturn is owned by GM.
I was trying to think of an American company that was making cars today and coming out with new models. The Geo metro seems a part of history. If GM is making new ones, they are keeping it a secret (one reason to let them fall).
The last time I saw a Saturn commercial they were bragging about the inclusion of big SUVs in their line up. Way to muddy a brand and sink it to the bottom with GM and the other two.
I was trying to think of an American company that was making cars today and coming out with new models. The Geo metro seems a part of history. If GM is making new ones, they are keeping it a secret (one reason to let them fall).
The last time I saw a Saturn commercial they were bragging about the inclusion of big SUVs in their line up. Way to muddy a brand and sink it to the bottom with GM and the other two.
Not bail out for big three. they been stupid and failed to double fuel economy. They should realized in 2005 that poor mpg cars are not going to sell. They also should invented a new kind of internal combustion engine. They should try combine cycles engine. but no they play it safe only promoting poplar technologies.
Not bail out for big three. they been stupid and failed to double fuel economy. They should realized in 2005 that poor mpg cars are not going to sell. They also should invented a new kind of internal combustion engine. They should try combine cycles engine. but no they play it safe only promoting poplar technologies.
“This industry has been sub par to the Japanese and German car makers for at least 25 years.”
See this is part of the public perception that will probably be forever in error. Yes, Toyota, Honda and Subaru have better reliability, but the other Japanese car companies are about the same as American cars in reliability. The German cars have been below (or in the case of Mercedes, about the same as) the American cars in reliability for many years now. German cars may be sexy and sophisticated, but they suck when it comes to maintaining them and with the exception of the VW TDIs, they get relatively terrible fuel economy.
“This industry has been sub par to the Japanese and German car makers for at least 25 years.”
See this is part of the public perception that will probably be forever in error. Yes, Toyota, Honda and Subaru have better reliability, but the other Japanese car companies are about the same as American cars in reliability. The German cars have been below (or in the case of Mercedes, about the same as) the American cars in reliability for many years now. German cars may be sexy and sophisticated, but they suck when it comes to maintaining them and with the exception of the VW TDIs, they get relatively terrible fuel economy.
Chapter 11. Reorganize and sell stuff that we need at a good price. UAW has bankrupt them. I didn’t know they paid that much. I would have applied for a job.
Chapter 11. Reorganize and sell stuff that we need at a good price. UAW has bankrupt them. I didn’t know they paid that much. I would have applied for a job.
Much of the problem is a result of the Congress regulations that have nothing to do with efficient production. for way too many years the congress has supported the unions by allowing one union to negotiate with all manufacturers and selectively strike one while moving union dues to support the strikers of the struck company.
This is how we ended up with outrageous health care contracts for the auto workers that was a major contributor in the increase of the cost of medical care. Everyone who was not a UAW-CIO auto worker lost out. It is unfortunate that the only way to correct the problems may well be bankruptcy wherein a judge can void much of the union contract and make these auto companies competitive with the non-Detroit auto companies building cars here in the USA.
The unions can save the companies, but the government should not.
Much of the problem is a result of the Congress regulations that have nothing to do with efficient production. for way too many years the congress has supported the unions by allowing one union to negotiate with all manufacturers and selectively strike one while moving union dues to support the strikers of the struck company.
This is how we ended up with outrageous health care contracts for the auto workers that was a major contributor in the increase of the cost of medical care. Everyone who was not a UAW-CIO auto worker lost out. It is unfortunate that the only way to correct the problems may well be bankruptcy wherein a judge can void much of the union contract and make these auto companies competitive with the non-Detroit auto companies building cars here in the USA.
The unions can save the companies, but the government should not.
I don’t really know what should be done, or not done.
But I wonder what is the correlation between “People who want to bail out the American automotive industry,” and “People who won’t or don’t actually buy cars from the Big Three?”
Anyone want to take that survey?
I don’t really know what should be done, or not done.
But I wonder what is the correlation between “People who want to bail out the American automotive industry,” and “People who won’t or don’t actually buy cars from the Big Three?”
Anyone want to take that survey?
I think it’s important for us to avoid getting caught up in a classic systems archetype of ‘fixes that fail’ and instead cut out the source of the problem– the manufacturing and sales paradigm of the combustion engine. The Big 3 have too many factories, too many supply chain networks and have to stop only making money when they sell a new car. It’s time to leapfrog into electric motors powered by combination of batteries, fuel cells and capacitors.
While Execs often dismiss new platforms and worry about being too early, recent bets on energy storage systems to be made in Asia suggest that we might be close to being too late.
Some related articles that look at recent changes:
http://www.theenergyroadmap.com/futureblogger
/show/1272-the-future-of-the-us-auto-industry
Nice to see the post on the survey though!!! Thanks!
Garry G
Editor
The Energy Roadmap.com
I think it’s important for us to avoid getting caught up in a classic systems archetype of ‘fixes that fail’ and instead cut out the source of the problem– the manufacturing and sales paradigm of the combustion engine. The Big 3 have too many factories, too many supply chain networks and have to stop only making money when they sell a new car. It’s time to leapfrog into electric motors powered by combination of batteries, fuel cells and capacitors.
While Execs often dismiss new platforms and worry about being too early, recent bets on energy storage systems to be made in Asia suggest that we might be close to being too late.
Some related articles that look at recent changes:
http://www.theenergyroadmap.com/futureblogger
/show/1272-the-future-of-the-us-auto-industry
Nice to see the post on the survey though!!! Thanks!
Garry G
Editor
The Energy Roadmap.com
This just in 72% of anonymous posters feel that the government should bail them out…
You are joking right? valid? I highly doubt it. What was the sample taken from, and where? did it take place in Detroit and other cities that host auto making facilities? Were the ‘random’ samples in any way affiliated with automakers or contracts that make items for same? Did any of them have CEO after their names??
I think this is a bit on the shady side…
This just in 72% of anonymous posters feel that the government should bail them out…
You are joking right? valid? I highly doubt it. What was the sample taken from, and where? did it take place in Detroit and other cities that host auto making facilities? Were the ‘random’ samples in any way affiliated with automakers or contracts that make items for same? Did any of them have CEO after their names??
I think this is a bit on the shady side…
Unless we’re prepared to carry the Big 3 forever, we shouldn’t start. If we give in, the line of businesses that will queue up for bail-outs, all with their own sob stories (e.g. circuit city), will stretch from coast to coast.
Don’t equate chapter 11 with “going under”. United Air has been in and out of chapter 11 for years. I flew with them 2 weeks ago. Seemed like business as usual to me except that they had the best schedule and lowest fare!
American enterprise (best in the world) is built on creative destruction. Time to block our ears and hold tight to our wallets! The bank bail-out has already given away 10% of our wealth.
Unless we’re prepared to carry the Big 3 forever, we shouldn’t start. If we give in, the line of businesses that will queue up for bail-outs, all with their own sob stories (e.g. circuit city), will stretch from coast to coast.
Don’t equate chapter 11 with “going under”. United Air has been in and out of chapter 11 for years. I flew with them 2 weeks ago. Seemed like business as usual to me except that they had the best schedule and lowest fare!
American enterprise (best in the world) is built on creative destruction. Time to block our ears and hold tight to our wallets! The bank bail-out has already given away 10% of our wealth.
Sounds like they asked SoCal Edison how to rig a poll, but lets put things in perspective:
According to Forbes:
Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.
Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)
GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)
Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)
Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)
According to AAUP and IES, the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).
Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. (see graph above, click to enlarge), and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.
the workers are overpaid. it was recognized back in 2006 that GM would not be able to compete with the other car makers due to their high overhead. They have been losing market share for the last 20 years and have finally hit the point where they cant continue.The downturn in the economy didnt do any more than reduce their capability to borrow money to hide the problem, the problem still exists that they build the wrong cars and their workers do not care about their survival.
Sounds like they asked SoCal Edison how to rig a poll, but lets put things in perspective:
According to Forbes:
Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.
Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)
GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)
Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)
Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)
According to AAUP and IES, the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).
Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. (see graph above, click to enlarge), and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.
the workers are overpaid. it was recognized back in 2006 that GM would not be able to compete with the other car makers due to their high overhead. They have been losing market share for the last 20 years and have finally hit the point where they cant continue.The downturn in the economy didnt do any more than reduce their capability to borrow money to hide the problem, the problem still exists that they build the wrong cars and their workers do not care about their survival.
You’re numbers are little funny and probably include employer payroll and ss tax.
But its moot anyway. A Chinese worker will get $10/day. There isn’t anyone here who’s overpaid. So, let’s move all industry there now because no one will ever compete with sweatshop wages.
I suspect you’re overpaid too. Lets issue some visas and take care of your inflated wage, ASAP.
You’re numbers are little funny and probably include employer payroll and ss tax.
But its moot anyway. A Chinese worker will get $10/day. There isn’t anyone here who’s overpaid. So, let’s move all industry there now because no one will ever compete with sweatshop wages.
I suspect you’re overpaid too. Lets issue some visas and take care of your inflated wage, ASAP.
Should be: “There isn’t anyone here who’s *not* overpaid”
Should be: “There isn’t anyone here who’s *not* overpaid”
I have voted Republican my entire life, but seeing the Republicans trying to stop the bailout of GM,Ford, and Chrysler shows me I have been voting wrong. If the Replicans do not vote to pass the bailout of Gm, Ford, and Chrysler I will vote Democratic for now on. Each manufacturing job creates at least 5 more service related jobs for Americans.
I have voted Republican my entire life, but seeing the Republicans trying to stop the bailout of GM,Ford, and Chrysler shows me I have been voting wrong. If the Replicans do not vote to pass the bailout of Gm, Ford, and Chrysler I will vote Democratic for now on. Each manufacturing job creates at least 5 more service related jobs for Americans.
William,
Go ahead and give your paycheck and vote to a bunch of over paid socialists.
jpm100,
That is one of the most childish and ignorant response to a logical and well documented argument I have seen in years. Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that UAW is a lead balloon and it will take the Big 3 under if they don’t cut the string. The fact that a dinosaur like the UAW still exists shows just how messed up the American business model is right now. We would rather prop up old poorly run businesses than force them to change and be productive. Any bailout that does not force the Big 3 to reorganize and cut ties with the UAW should be voted down with prejudice. If they want to compete in the global economy than they need to prove it.
William,
Go ahead and give your paycheck and vote to a bunch of over paid socialists.
jpm100,
That is one of the most childish and ignorant response to a logical and well documented argument I have seen in years. Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that UAW is a lead balloon and it will take the Big 3 under if they don’t cut the string. The fact that a dinosaur like the UAW still exists shows just how messed up the American business model is right now. We would rather prop up old poorly run businesses than force them to change and be productive. Any bailout that does not force the Big 3 to reorganize and cut ties with the UAW should be voted down with prejudice. If they want to compete in the global economy than they need to prove it.
I blame 90% of this on the UNIONS. Their are required minimum pay with required pay rate increases which far exceed the national average. Their insurance and pensions are fare superior to the national average. Most companies have dumped pensions, however union controlled plans are untouchable. Another item of note is 50% of the cost of a new vehicle pays for the union required insurance, pensions, and corporate overhead including dealer kick backs. Please research non union auto companies and you will see that they are very stable with no financial problems. Fellow Americans, please wake up and remove the Iron Curtain the Unions have placed before you.
I blame 90% of this on the UNIONS. Their are required minimum pay with required pay rate increases which far exceed the national average. Their insurance and pensions are fare superior to the national average. Most companies have dumped pensions, however union controlled plans are untouchable. Another item of note is 50% of the cost of a new vehicle pays for the union required insurance, pensions, and corporate overhead including dealer kick backs. Please research non union auto companies and you will see that they are very stable with no financial problems. Fellow Americans, please wake up and remove the Iron Curtain the Unions have placed before you.
Doug, I may be childish, but I’m not foolish.
Foolish is believing that you are compartmentalized economically from the people around you. Especially true if you’re a College Professor.
There’s no reason that if higher than your competitor’s wages means you go out of business, China will not get everything eventually. The exceptions being agriculture and mining. What does a Professor’s wage look like in a country full of farmers.
If you’re ticked at Union conduct, then you should have been calling for the government to give the companies the tools to bust the union. I’m wondering how many people calling their representatives and being vocal about letting GM go down because of the unions did likewise to anywhere close to the same degree calling for the weakening of unions?
Doug, I may be childish, but I’m not foolish.
Foolish is believing that you are compartmentalized economically from the people around you. Especially true if you’re a College Professor.
There’s no reason that if higher than your competitor’s wages means you go out of business, China will not get everything eventually. The exceptions being agriculture and mining. What does a Professor’s wage look like in a country full of farmers.
If you’re ticked at Union conduct, then you should have been calling for the government to give the companies the tools to bust the union. I’m wondering how many people calling their representatives and being vocal about letting GM go down because of the unions did likewise to anywhere close to the same degree calling for the weakening of unions?
Gee, a poll by GM that supports their position…
I’m against a bailout. The best thing for GM in my opinion is for them to reorganize under Chapter 11, getting rid of the bloat (management and union both) and creating a new business model focusing on the future.
Many airlines have gone through bankruptcy and survived. GM can too. If it can’t, then it doesn’t deserve to continue as a business.
Gee, a poll by GM that supports their position…
I’m against a bailout. The best thing for GM in my opinion is for them to reorganize under Chapter 11, getting rid of the bloat (management and union both) and creating a new business model focusing on the future.
Many airlines have gone through bankruptcy and survived. GM can too. If it can’t, then it doesn’t deserve to continue as a business.
There’s more than just economy facing GM as well as not only Ford and Crysler, but most of the auto industry. foremost, GM’s coachwsork has progressively gotten worse and less solid eversince the demise of Body by Fischer. Most of their transmissions suck and are not made by GM in total. Also, GM as well as the others have continues to manufacture exterior styling (so-0called) that is designed so as to decapitate the drive upon collision with another vehicle and or truck, in thaT The car would go under the front vehicle’s rear end, allowing it to continue up the hood to the windshield and eventually the driver’s head and neck.
Entrance and egress to and from he vehicle has also suffered. Many vehicles are designed so a passenger or driver must bend backward from the waist in order to enter or exit the car and also to keep from having the car door, which slants toward the car’s interior surfaces, put the persons’ eyes out. Front seats are also too low to the floor of the vehicle, making making it hard for older people or oersons with back trouble have trouble getting in and out. By the seats being so low to the floor, long trips cause one’s back to hurt from not allowing one to have at least some bend in their knees.
Trunks are now designed so one has to be Charles Atlas in order to lift heavy parcels over the back wall of it, rather than the floor of the trunk being level to allow in and out access.
What heppened to beautiful color-keyed interiors that go with the exterior colors of the vehicles? Doesn’t matter whazt color the car is at present, the only option you have for interior is ugly beige or grey leather interiors. Gimmicks which raise vehicle cost rater than comfort and attractiveness seems to be all you offer. Leather interiors are expensive to replace, have a short lifespan , soil easily and at a point can no longer be cleaned, which means one MUST trade the car off before the leather starts showing. Thus if you cannot afford to trade every two years, you end up with a problem interior that is soiled, cracked, smells, is cold in winter and hot in summer. Hey, Detroit, get with it and really listen to the public ./.. get someone other than a teenage hotrodder to listen to for your vehicles!
There’s more than just economy facing GM as well as not only Ford and Crysler, but most of the auto industry. foremost, GM’s coachwsork has progressively gotten worse and less solid eversince the demise of Body by Fischer. Most of their transmissions suck and are not made by GM in total. Also, GM as well as the others have continues to manufacture exterior styling (so-0called) that is designed so as to decapitate the drive upon collision with another vehicle and or truck, in thaT The car would go under the front vehicle’s rear end, allowing it to continue up the hood to the windshield and eventually the driver’s head and neck.
Entrance and egress to and from he vehicle has also suffered. Many vehicles are designed so a passenger or driver must bend backward from the waist in order to enter or exit the car and also to keep from having the car door, which slants toward the car’s interior surfaces, put the persons’ eyes out. Front seats are also too low to the floor of the vehicle, making making it hard for older people or oersons with back trouble have trouble getting in and out. By the seats being so low to the floor, long trips cause one’s back to hurt from not allowing one to have at least some bend in their knees.
Trunks are now designed so one has to be Charles Atlas in order to lift heavy parcels over the back wall of it, rather than the floor of the trunk being level to allow in and out access.
What heppened to beautiful color-keyed interiors that go with the exterior colors of the vehicles? Doesn’t matter whazt color the car is at present, the only option you have for interior is ugly beige or grey leather interiors. Gimmicks which raise vehicle cost rater than comfort and attractiveness seems to be all you offer. Leather interiors are expensive to replace, have a short lifespan , soil easily and at a point can no longer be cleaned, which means one MUST trade the car off before the leather starts showing. Thus if you cannot afford to trade every two years, you end up with a problem interior that is soiled, cracked, smells, is cold in winter and hot in summer. Hey, Detroit, get with it and really listen to the public ./.. get someone other than a teenage hotrodder to listen to for your vehicles!
Would this survey happened to be conducted in Detroit?
Would this survey happened to be conducted in Detroit?
Do you want to spend your money propping up a failed financial model and thuggish UAW indefinitely? They make a hell of a lot more money than most of us do & have a retirement benefits that blow away anything anyone else of us were going to get. My retirement just went down the crapper, and I’m supposed to prop-up their extravagant retirement with my taxes? I don’t think so, I couldn’t afford to do so, even if I wanted to. I watched the unions strangle the textile industry in the northeast, until the industry was forced to pack up and move to greener (off-shore) pastures. Bailing out the UAW and greedy executives will bleed us to death (again), while merely delaying the inevitable. Can America live better without unions and over-paid management, can you say: Toyota?
Do you want to spend your money propping up a failed financial model and thuggish UAW indefinitely? They make a hell of a lot more money than most of us do & have a retirement benefits that blow away anything anyone else of us were going to get. My retirement just went down the crapper, and I’m supposed to prop-up their extravagant retirement with my taxes? I don’t think so, I couldn’t afford to do so, even if I wanted to. I watched the unions strangle the textile industry in the northeast, until the industry was forced to pack up and move to greener (off-shore) pastures. Bailing out the UAW and greedy executives will bleed us to death (again), while merely delaying the inevitable. Can America live better without unions and over-paid management, can you say: Toyota?
We are in a time of transition. If the big three were to collapse, all of the talent (engineers, marketing execs, machinists, etc) would likely get involved in smaller auto ventures. With the focus on ‘greening’ the industry, I imagine that many of these start-ups spawned from the fall of the big three would be focused on new fuels and high mpg.
Sometimes we have to let go of the big old conventions in order to bring new life and ideas to reality.
We are in a time of transition. If the big three were to collapse, all of the talent (engineers, marketing execs, machinists, etc) would likely get involved in smaller auto ventures. With the focus on ‘greening’ the industry, I imagine that many of these start-ups spawned from the fall of the big three would be focused on new fuels and high mpg.
Sometimes we have to let go of the big old conventions in order to bring new life and ideas to reality.
Without any doubt, when you look at the technology needed for designing and building electric cars and alternative energy, the USA are worlds finest.
You’ve got the edge, but you don’t use this powerful asset.
I say bail the big three out but under very strict conditions. They failed miserably, they have lost any right to negociate. Kick the mismanagers out, stripping them of excessive pay.
Temporary replace them by managers appointed by your government, until the big three have paid back their bail out loan in full. And mass produce real electric cars, not those impractical unattractive shopping carts… If you do it well, it could be a life saver for your economy.
Without any doubt, when you look at the technology needed for designing and building electric cars and alternative energy, the USA are worlds finest.
You’ve got the edge, but you don’t use this powerful asset.
I say bail the big three out but under very strict conditions. They failed miserably, they have lost any right to negociate. Kick the mismanagers out, stripping them of excessive pay.
Temporary replace them by managers appointed by your government, until the big three have paid back their bail out loan in full. And mass produce real electric cars, not those impractical unattractive shopping carts… If you do it well, it could be a life saver for your economy.
Well, they didn’t take the poll in my part of the country. I haven’t spoken to a single proponent of the bailout. I feel horribly for the economic effects that would be possible if the Big Three shut down, but I HATE the fact that we’re letting overpaid corporate types make bad choices then sit around while WE clean it up for them.
Well, they didn’t take the poll in my part of the country. I haven’t spoken to a single proponent of the bailout. I feel horribly for the economic effects that would be possible if the Big Three shut down, but I HATE the fact that we’re letting overpaid corporate types make bad choices then sit around while WE clean it up for them.
jpm,
I am not for the weakening of unions. I am for the complete and systematic destruction of all things union. They ceased to serve a productive purpose over 20 years ago and now just make it more difficult for US companies to compete. My point about your previous argument is that simply looking at wage is not feasible. Yes people in 2nd and 3rd world countries get paid less than Americans as a whole, but when you add in distribution and transportation, it levels that field out some.
jpm,
I am not for the weakening of unions. I am for the complete and systematic destruction of all things union. They ceased to serve a productive purpose over 20 years ago and now just make it more difficult for US companies to compete. My point about your previous argument is that simply looking at wage is not feasible. Yes people in 2nd and 3rd world countries get paid less than Americans as a whole, but when you add in distribution and transportation, it levels that field out some.
There are a great deal of misconceptions and uninformed statments made in this post. Here is a list that every anti-bailout poster should keep in mind. Before I get to it, the union absolutely needs to agree to competitive wages and benefits or hit the road.
1. U.S. annual auto sales were stable at 16M units per year. Then, within a small window of time, they dropped to 12M. This has nothing to do with the Big 3, just the economy in general. Very few markets can support all players in the industry after a sudden 25% reduction in their potential market.
2. There are many auto companies globally currently seeking bailouts (i.e. Europe). Forget the notion that the Big 3 are the only ones struggling.
3. The Japanese are “bailed out” on a daily basis. Their government intervenes in foreign money markets regularly to ensure the Yen remains attractive relative to the dollar, which is the only reason they can turn a profit in the US. I also believe that medical benefits are subsidized by the govt. in Japan.
4. GM makes more 30+MPG cars than any other auto maker, and their quality ratings are every bit that of Toyota and Honda on their newer vehicles. Forget the past, the same way you have forgotten the time when the Japanese cars were a joke, and realize the Big 3 are putting out quality products once more.
5. Many of your beloved Toyotas have a GM equivalent. By this I mean that there is actually a factory shared by GM and Toyota in the US that pumps out identical cars with either a GM or Toyota badge. (i.e. Matrix and Vibe).
6. Non-plugin hybrid technology is a joke that many of the posters on this site have been duped in to. The batteries in these vehicles will become the scurge of the earth, when they are not properly disposed of, and the factories they are produced in make Chernoble look cozy. To top it all off, there are plenty of gasoline only powertrains out there that blow hybrids away in terms of MPG. WAKE UP AND RESEARCH!!!!
7. Finally, be honest with yourselves. Yes, there are many flaws with the Big 3, as there are with any big company. Think about a 25% loss in the overall market over almost no time and think about if the industry each of you work in could sustain such a loss.
There are a great deal of misconceptions and uninformed statments made in this post. Here is a list that every anti-bailout poster should keep in mind. Before I get to it, the union absolutely needs to agree to competitive wages and benefits or hit the road.
1. U.S. annual auto sales were stable at 16M units per year. Then, within a small window of time, they dropped to 12M. This has nothing to do with the Big 3, just the economy in general. Very few markets can support all players in the industry after a sudden 25% reduction in their potential market.
2. There are many auto companies globally currently seeking bailouts (i.e. Europe). Forget the notion that the Big 3 are the only ones struggling.
3. The Japanese are “bailed out” on a daily basis. Their government intervenes in foreign money markets regularly to ensure the Yen remains attractive relative to the dollar, which is the only reason they can turn a profit in the US. I also believe that medical benefits are subsidized by the govt. in Japan.
4. GM makes more 30+MPG cars than any other auto maker, and their quality ratings are every bit that of Toyota and Honda on their newer vehicles. Forget the past, the same way you have forgotten the time when the Japanese cars were a joke, and realize the Big 3 are putting out quality products once more.
5. Many of your beloved Toyotas have a GM equivalent. By this I mean that there is actually a factory shared by GM and Toyota in the US that pumps out identical cars with either a GM or Toyota badge. (i.e. Matrix and Vibe).
6. Non-plugin hybrid technology is a joke that many of the posters on this site have been duped in to. The batteries in these vehicles will become the scurge of the earth, when they are not properly disposed of, and the factories they are produced in make Chernoble look cozy. To top it all off, there are plenty of gasoline only powertrains out there that blow hybrids away in terms of MPG. WAKE UP AND RESEARCH!!!!
7. Finally, be honest with yourselves. Yes, there are many flaws with the Big 3, as there are with any big company. Think about a 25% loss in the overall market over almost no time and think about if the industry each of you work in could sustain such a loss.
DUH a poll by GM Like you should trust that one.
I got one of there email, No I’m not a loyal customer.
No i will not buy a big 3 product now. Not because
they are going under but because there products arent
that good and all the UAW demands and over paid labor.
DUH a poll by GM Like you should trust that one.
I got one of there email, No I’m not a loyal customer.
No i will not buy a big 3 product now. Not because
they are going under but because there products arent
that good and all the UAW demands and over paid labor.
I am unsure how this poll was done, but I have yet found anyone for the GM bailout. Most say heck no, not just no. Thinking about bailing out GM makes me ill. Please count my VOTE as NO! to bailing out GM.
I am unsure how this poll was done, but I have yet found anyone for the GM bailout. Most say heck no, not just no. Thinking about bailing out GM makes me ill. Please count my VOTE as NO! to bailing out GM.
Paying these execs a dollar a year is overpayment. I think we should get a refund of the money payed to them over the last 10 years. Where is all the profit from the past 30 years? And one thinks that a 30 billion loan is gonna be payed back, no way. It is money down a rat hole. As far as loosing 3 million jobs, that is car salesman talk. Most of us Americans are not just gonna sit on our arsh. On top of all this, it is gonna take 2 plus years just to sell the cars we have built, much less build more!
Paying these execs a dollar a year is overpayment. I think we should get a refund of the money payed to them over the last 10 years. Where is all the profit from the past 30 years? And one thinks that a 30 billion loan is gonna be payed back, no way. It is money down a rat hole. As far as loosing 3 million jobs, that is car salesman talk. Most of us Americans are not just gonna sit on our arsh. On top of all this, it is gonna take 2 plus years just to sell the cars we have built, much less build more!
I too conducted a poll and 100 said this comment rocks. I suspect my poll was about as impartial as the GM one.
I too conducted a poll and 100 said this comment rocks. I suspect my poll was about as impartial as the GM one.