Comments on: Snapshot of Battery Technology for Plug-in Hybrid Electric Cars http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/ What is the future of fuel? What's new? What's next? Since 2007, Gas 2 has covered a rapidly changing world coming to terms with its oil addiction. Mon, 13 Feb 2012 00:40:40 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Frederik Balcaen http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-2616 Frederik Balcaen Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:41:28 +0000 http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-2616 Electric is the future, but in the meantime you Americans should strongly consider turbocharged diesel cars. In my small country Belgium (and it's a general trend in Europe) 70% of the newly sold cars are diesel powered (most turbocharged diesel), and mine is too. I do 75mpg when cruising at 85mph on the highway (which is not an economic speed!) and I have a mixed average of 45mpg since I bought the car (totaled some 85.000 miles). The car is a fairly basic Opel 1.7 litre turbo diesel (Opel is a European GM brand) so all the knowledge is present within the GM group! Despite the small engine it does 0-60 in some 10secs and do 120mph, but more importantly it is very powerful at low and mid revs, so you have the acceleration power in mid-revs equal to a far bigger gas engine. And low-rev acceleration is what counts especially for quick and safe overtaking. So you basically have the feel of a 2.5l gas engine in mid-rev range. And this engine of mine is only a very modest engine! This is probably the reason why Toyota Prius is not nearly as popular in Europe, because we have very economic cars without all the hype (and extra cost) of hybrid technology. Of course, we are used to smaller cars in Europe (well, probably smaller everything...). And smaller cars are lighter and inherently more economic, although the advent of modern turbocharged diesel engines has SLASHED average consumption of cars in only 10 years time in Europe. Before, I drove a Saab 900S (Turbocharged gas engine) and made about 25mpg. My Opel is only marginally slower in acceleration on paper (I wouldn't say it is), but it does 45mpg with its turbocharged diesel engine!! That's an 80% increase without noticeable loss of power! Are there any drawbacks? Yes: the specific carbon dioxide emission per gallon is higher (but this is more than compensated for by the phenomenal gain in efficiency); the higher burning temperatures mean that more nitrous oxides are formed (but there are catalyzers to offset this formation) and finally, there is emission of very fine dust particles that are suspected to be carcinogenic. But today, this is best available technology. I am very confident to have better mileage than an average Toyota Prius at a fraction of the cost and with more driving pleasure. Some 80% of the big luxury BMW 7 Series in Belgium is a 730d sold with a 3-litre turbocharged diesel engine. It does 0-60 in some 7 seconds and I know (by driving with it and seeing the on-board computer) it is feeling more powerful than the previous generation gas-powered 740i (especially due to massive mid-range torque) and this heavy 4000lbs luxury car does 8,4L/100km which equals to 28mpg!! The future is electric but in the meantime any reasonable choice should be turbocharged diesel. No clue why diesel is not popular in the states... Electric is the future, but in the meantime you Americans should strongly consider turbocharged diesel cars. In my small country Belgium (and it’s a general trend in Europe) 70% of the newly sold cars are diesel powered (most turbocharged diesel), and mine is too. I do 75mpg when cruising at 85mph on the highway (which is not an economic speed!) and I have a mixed average of 45mpg since I bought the car (totaled some 85.000 miles). The car is a fairly basic Opel 1.7 litre turbo diesel (Opel is a European GM brand) so all the knowledge is present within the GM group! Despite the small engine it does 0-60 in some 10secs and do 120mph, but more importantly it is very powerful at low and mid revs, so you have the acceleration power in mid-revs equal to a far bigger gas engine. And low-rev acceleration is what counts especially for quick and safe overtaking. So you basically have the feel of a 2.5l gas engine in mid-rev range. And this engine of mine is only a very modest engine!

This is probably the reason why Toyota Prius is not nearly as popular in Europe, because we have very economic cars without all the hype (and extra cost) of hybrid technology.

Of course, we are used to smaller cars in Europe (well, probably smaller everything…). And smaller cars are lighter and inherently more economic, although the advent of modern turbocharged diesel engines has SLASHED average consumption of cars in only 10 years time in Europe. Before, I drove a Saab 900S (Turbocharged gas engine) and made about 25mpg. My Opel is only marginally slower in acceleration on paper (I wouldn’t say it is), but it does 45mpg with its turbocharged diesel engine!! That’s an 80% increase without noticeable loss of power!

Are there any drawbacks?

Yes: the specific carbon dioxide emission per gallon is higher (but this is more than compensated for by the phenomenal gain in efficiency); the higher burning temperatures mean that more nitrous oxides are formed (but there are catalyzers to offset this formation) and finally, there is emission of very fine dust particles that are suspected to be carcinogenic.

But today, this is best available technology. I am very confident to have better mileage than an average Toyota Prius at a fraction of the cost and with more driving pleasure.

Some 80% of the big luxury BMW 7 Series in Belgium is a 730d sold with a 3-litre turbocharged diesel engine. It does 0-60 in some 7 seconds and I know (by driving with it and seeing the on-board computer) it is feeling more powerful than the previous generation gas-powered 740i (especially due to massive mid-range torque) and this heavy 4000lbs luxury car does 8,4L/100km which equals to 28mpg!!

The future is electric but in the meantime any reasonable choice should be turbocharged diesel. No clue why diesel is not popular in the states…

]]> By: Frederik Balcaen http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-24580 Frederik Balcaen Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:41:00 +0000 http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-24580 Electric is the future, but in the meantime you Americans should strongly consider turbocharged diesel cars. In my small country Belgium (and it's a general trend in Europe) 70% of the newly sold cars are diesel powered (most turbocharged diesel), and mine is too. I do 75mpg when cruising at 85mph on the highway (which is not an economic speed!) and I have a mixed average of 45mpg since I bought the car (totaled some 85.000 miles). The car is a fairly basic Opel 1.7 litre turbo diesel (Opel is a European GM brand) so all the knowledge is present within the GM group! Despite the small engine it does 0-60 in some 10secs and do 120mph, but more importantly it is very powerful at low and mid revs, so you have the acceleration power in mid-revs equal to a far bigger gas engine. And low-rev acceleration is what counts especially for quick and safe overtaking. So you basically have the feel of a 2.5l gas engine in mid-rev range. And this engine of mine is only a very modest engine! This is probably the reason why Toyota Prius is not nearly as popular in Europe, because we have very economic cars without all the hype (and extra cost) of hybrid technology. Of course, we are used to smaller cars in Europe (well, probably smaller everything...). And smaller cars are lighter and inherently more economic, although the advent of modern turbocharged diesel engines has SLASHED average consumption of cars in only 10 years time in Europe. Before, I drove a Saab 900S (Turbocharged gas engine) and made about 25mpg. My Opel is only marginally slower in acceleration on paper (I wouldn't say it is), but it does 45mpg with its turbocharged diesel engine!! That's an 80% increase without noticeable loss of power! Are there any drawbacks? Yes: the specific carbon dioxide emission per gallon is higher (but this is more than compensated for by the phenomenal gain in efficiency); the higher burning temperatures mean that more nitrous oxides are formed (but there are catalyzers to offset this formation) and finally, there is emission of very fine dust particles that are suspected to be carcinogenic. But today, this is best available technology. I am very confident to have better mileage than an average Toyota Prius at a fraction of the cost and with more driving pleasure. Some 80% of the big luxury BMW 7 Series in Belgium is a 730d sold with a 3-litre turbocharged diesel engine. It does 0-60 in some 7 seconds and I know (by driving with it and seeing the on-board computer) it is feeling more powerful than the previous generation gas-powered 740i (especially due to massive mid-range torque) and this heavy 4000lbs luxury car does 8,4L/100km which equals to 28mpg!! The future is electric but in the meantime any reasonable choice should be turbocharged diesel. No clue why diesel is not popular in the states... Electric is the future, but in the meantime you Americans should strongly consider turbocharged diesel cars. In my small country Belgium (and it’s a general trend in Europe) 70% of the newly sold cars are diesel powered (most turbocharged diesel), and mine is too. I do 75mpg when cruising at 85mph on the highway (which is not an economic speed!) and I have a mixed average of 45mpg since I bought the car (totaled some 85.000 miles). The car is a fairly basic Opel 1.7 litre turbo diesel (Opel is a European GM brand) so all the knowledge is present within the GM group! Despite the small engine it does 0-60 in some 10secs and do 120mph, but more importantly it is very powerful at low and mid revs, so you have the acceleration power in mid-revs equal to a far bigger gas engine. And low-rev acceleration is what counts especially for quick and safe overtaking. So you basically have the feel of a 2.5l gas engine in mid-rev range. And this engine of mine is only a very modest engine!

This is probably the reason why Toyota Prius is not nearly as popular in Europe, because we have very economic cars without all the hype (and extra cost) of hybrid technology.

Of course, we are used to smaller cars in Europe (well, probably smaller everything…). And smaller cars are lighter and inherently more economic, although the advent of modern turbocharged diesel engines has SLASHED average consumption of cars in only 10 years time in Europe. Before, I drove a Saab 900S (Turbocharged gas engine) and made about 25mpg. My Opel is only marginally slower in acceleration on paper (I wouldn’t say it is), but it does 45mpg with its turbocharged diesel engine!! That’s an 80% increase without noticeable loss of power!

Are there any drawbacks?

Yes: the specific carbon dioxide emission per gallon is higher (but this is more than compensated for by the phenomenal gain in efficiency); the higher burning temperatures mean that more nitrous oxides are formed (but there are catalyzers to offset this formation) and finally, there is emission of very fine dust particles that are suspected to be carcinogenic.

But today, this is best available technology. I am very confident to have better mileage than an average Toyota Prius at a fraction of the cost and with more driving pleasure.

Some 80% of the big luxury BMW 7 Series in Belgium is a 730d sold with a 3-litre turbocharged diesel engine. It does 0-60 in some 7 seconds and I know (by driving with it and seeing the on-board computer) it is feeling more powerful than the previous generation gas-powered 740i (especially due to massive mid-range torque) and this heavy 4000lbs luxury car does 8,4L/100km which equals to 28mpg!!

The future is electric but in the meantime any reasonable choice should be turbocharged diesel. No clue why diesel is not popular in the states…

]]> By: Andrew McMaster http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-2615 Andrew McMaster Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:24:34 +0000 http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-2615 Why can't we get the European Gas sipping models over here immediately. What in hell is the hold up. Why can’t we get the European Gas sipping models over here immediately. What in hell is the hold up.

]]> By: Andrew McMaster http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-24579 Andrew McMaster Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:24:00 +0000 http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-24579 Why can't we get the European Gas sipping models over here immediately. What in hell is the hold up. Why can’t we get the European Gas sipping models over here immediately. What in hell is the hold up.

]]> By: Henry Gibson http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-2614 Henry Gibson Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:43:55 +0000 http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-2614 Lead-acid batteries and ZEBRA batteries have both powered hybrid electric vehicles. The ZEBRA has the highest energy density and is being used in the TH!NK with 100KM plus range. A single lead acid OASIS from Firefly has enough energy in it for more than six miles in a converted Prius, but the power rating from a single unit at this capacity is one half horsepower or about two miles an hour. The battery is capable of much higher power but at a large energy loss. Five Oasis units would give a Prius plus 30 miles of range for 350 pounds. The Firefly technology should be optimized into the EFFPOWER's bipolar high power high voltage units for much better power and energy density. ZEBRA batteries are far more energy dense and compete well on this point with commercial Lithium batteries. High capacity batteries are not a problem for plug-in-hybrid vehicles; the cost of the electric drive is a very big problem and this is because of the lack of high volume production and competition. Just like regular cars, another problem is too large of motors. Low mileage plug-in-hybrids will meet the needs of most people and will achieve most of the energy savings that longer distance versions would. Full electric cars are a product of ignoring engineering and economic realities and should be forbidden because they perpetuate the falsehood about limited range and the false non-availablility of adequate batteries. ..HG.. Lead-acid batteries and ZEBRA batteries have both powered hybrid electric vehicles. The ZEBRA has the highest energy density and is being used in the TH!NK with 100KM plus range. A single lead acid OASIS from Firefly has enough energy in it for more than six miles in a converted Prius, but the power rating from a single unit at this capacity is one half horsepower or about two miles an hour. The battery is capable of much higher power but at a large energy loss. Five Oasis units would give a Prius plus 30 miles of range for 350 pounds. The Firefly technology should be optimized into the EFFPOWER’s bipolar high power high voltage units for much better power and energy density. ZEBRA batteries are far more energy dense and compete well on this point with commercial Lithium batteries. High capacity batteries are not a problem for plug-in-hybrid vehicles; the cost of the electric drive is a very big problem and this is because of the lack of high volume production and competition. Just like regular cars, another problem is too large of motors. Low mileage plug-in-hybrids will meet the needs of most people and will achieve most of the energy savings that longer distance versions would.

Full electric cars are a product of ignoring engineering and economic realities and should be forbidden because they perpetuate the falsehood about limited range and the false non-availablility of adequate batteries. ..HG..

]]> By: Henry Gibson http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-24578 Henry Gibson Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:43:00 +0000 http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-24578 Lead-acid batteries and ZEBRA batteries have both powered hybrid electric vehicles. The ZEBRA has the highest energy density and is being used in the TH!NK with 100KM plus range. A single lead acid OASIS from Firefly has enough energy in it for more than six miles in a converted Prius, but the power rating from a single unit at this capacity is one half horsepower or about two miles an hour. The battery is capable of much higher power but at a large energy loss. Five Oasis units would give a Prius plus 30 miles of range for 350 pounds. The Firefly technology should be optimized into the EFFPOWER's bipolar high power high voltage units for much better power and energy density. ZEBRA batteries are far more energy dense and compete well on this point with commercial Lithium batteries. High capacity batteries are not a problem for plug-in-hybrid vehicles; the cost of the electric drive is a very big problem and this is because of the lack of high volume production and competition. Just like regular cars, another problem is too large of motors. Low mileage plug-in-hybrids will meet the needs of most people and will achieve most of the energy savings that longer distance versions would. Full electric cars are a product of ignoring engineering and economic realities and should be forbidden because they perpetuate the falsehood about limited range and the false non-availablility of adequate batteries. ..HG.. Lead-acid batteries and ZEBRA batteries have both powered hybrid electric vehicles. The ZEBRA has the highest energy density and is being used in the TH!NK with 100KM plus range. A single lead acid OASIS from Firefly has enough energy in it for more than six miles in a converted Prius, but the power rating from a single unit at this capacity is one half horsepower or about two miles an hour. The battery is capable of much higher power but at a large energy loss. Five Oasis units would give a Prius plus 30 miles of range for 350 pounds. The Firefly technology should be optimized into the EFFPOWER’s bipolar high power high voltage units for much better power and energy density. ZEBRA batteries are far more energy dense and compete well on this point with commercial Lithium batteries. High capacity batteries are not a problem for plug-in-hybrid vehicles; the cost of the electric drive is a very big problem and this is because of the lack of high volume production and competition. Just like regular cars, another problem is too large of motors. Low mileage plug-in-hybrids will meet the needs of most people and will achieve most of the energy savings that longer distance versions would.

Full electric cars are a product of ignoring engineering and economic realities and should be forbidden because they perpetuate the falsehood about limited range and the false non-availablility of adequate batteries. ..HG..

]]> By: VW Golf Twin Drive Plug-In Hyb http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-24577 VW Golf Twin Drive Plug-In Hyb Tue, 01 Jul 2008 23:21:00 +0000 http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-24577 Thanks for the information and conclusions about the different battery technologies. I'm hopeful that we'll have a number of plug-in hybrids available soon from major manufacturers, in the US and around the world. For a concept car that combines plug-in hybrid and turbo diesel technology, VW seems to be in the lead, though not in a way that will necessarily affect the US. Thanks for the information and conclusions about the different battery technologies. I’m hopeful that we’ll have a number of plug-in hybrids available soon from major manufacturers, in the US and around the world.

For a concept car that combines plug-in hybrid and turbo diesel technology, VW seems to be in the lead, though not in a way that will necessarily affect the US.

]]> By: VW Golf Twin Drive Plug-In Hybrid Diesel http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-2613 VW Golf Twin Drive Plug-In Hybrid Diesel Tue, 01 Jul 2008 23:21:00 +0000 http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-2613 Thanks for the information and conclusions about the different battery technologies. I'm hopeful that we'll have a number of plug-in hybrids available soon from major manufacturers, in the US and around the world. For a concept car that combines plug-in hybrid and turbo diesel technology, VW seems to be in the lead, though not in a way that will necessarily affect the US. Thanks for the information and conclusions about the different battery technologies. I’m hopeful that we’ll have a number of plug-in hybrids available soon from major manufacturers, in the US and around the world.

For a concept car that combines plug-in hybrid and turbo diesel technology, VW seems to be in the lead, though not in a way that will necessarily affect the US.

]]> By: Hydraulic Hybrid Technology Could Rival Batteries : Gas 2.0 http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-2612 Hydraulic Hybrid Technology Could Rival Batteries : Gas 2.0 Fri, 13 Jun 2008 23:28:05 +0000 http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-2612 [...] this post? Subscribe to our RSS feed and stay up to date.Plug-in hybrid, all-electric or fuel cell? Car-makers are hedging their bets on what will emerge as the next [...] [...] this post? Subscribe to our RSS feed and stay up to date.Plug-in hybrid, all-electric or fuel cell? Car-makers are hedging their bets on what will emerge as the next [...]

]]> By: An Electric Car With Muscle: The 175 MPGe X1 Prototype by Wrightspeed Inc. : Gas 2.0 http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-2611 An Electric Car With Muscle: The 175 MPGe X1 Prototype by Wrightspeed Inc. : Gas 2.0 Wed, 04 Jun 2008 18:59:11 +0000 http://gas2.org/2008/05/19/snapshot-of-battery-technology-for-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars/#comment-2611 [...] the way to 112 mph. The electrical system is powered by lithium polymer batteries, which is another variation on lithium-based systems I’ve highlighted before. The X1 has a 100 mile range and reaches an overall equivalent of 175 [...] [...] the way to 112 mph. The electrical system is powered by lithium polymer batteries, which is another variation on lithium-based systems I’ve highlighted before. The X1 has a 100 mile range and reaches an overall equivalent of 175 [...]

]]>